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New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage.
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MrLordcaptain Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm Posts: 654	Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage. SkepticTA wrote: Fractal grenades are supposed to be anti-personnel for the purpose of area denial, hence the very large radius and duration. Brute is a duelist class, not an assault class. The new cluster grenades look to me like a thrown MIRV round, and a natural cousin to the EMP which is pretty much a thrown mortar. Raider and Jugg are both assault classes, so I think there's a pattern emerging here. And how since every f***ing autoweapon rapes him, his shield pack does take one hit and you are without movement. Btw. duelling; LMG and thrown discs? THATS a duelling class (and assault) _________________ Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns
Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:04 am

Pkunk Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:42 am Posts: 351	Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage. -AEnubis- wrote: This makes me sad, for I was hoping they could use the free2play model to circumvent the huge Tribes learning curve, and more people would work to overcome it since it's free. But they kinda did that. There is close to none learning curve with using the automatic weapons. Go raider with shield pack and the horrible spamgun they get and you don't even have to leave the ground.
Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:05 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4865 Location: NA East	Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage. Well, that's the other sad part, is they have flattened out the learning curve, and wrecked balance in favor of sales. I never even knew how to ski in Tribes, and I'm grabbing at almost 300 sanics in a couple months here, not to mention owning face with autos like it's no big deal. It took me a couple weeks just to get my first frag in Tribes. Cognitive dissonance my ass, this game was too easy. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:41 am

Icedaemon Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:30 am Posts: 221	Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage. So, I made an account specifically to state this: The cluster grenade does look like it could be a bit overpowered, this coming from someone who barely plays anything but raider. However, a weapon's balance can depend on how its upgrades work. If the current EMP grenade stays at 2/maxed out with +1 when using Safety Third, while even when wholly upgraded only one cluster bomb (or 2 with Safety Third) could be carried, they would I believe be nicely balanced in regards to one another - at most 2 cluster grenades makes them a precious resource, to be used only when one is certain they would result in at least one kill I cannot easily make with my main weapon. A tactic I often use when forced to play Emergency Llama is tossing my remaining grenades at my feet or behind myself when speeding towards my base. As the EMP grenade only explodes after a set amount of time, not on impact, it does not endanger myself but can kill a chaser. A clusterbomb would be much better at this, turning the raider into a good capper, further imbalancing the game. Maybe I am weird, but I do not desire OP weapons - my victory ought to be due to skill. The SMG is already better in several situations than the chaingun, but this insofar seems excusable as using the ARX buster or grenade launcher in outdoor combat is extremely tricky and an equally skilled soldier with a spinfusor tends to kill me unless I am very unpredictable in using my jets. The Raider as is feels balanced, if one assumes that the Pathfinder, Raider and Sentinel are on par and thus, as 3 out of 9, the more balanced party. The Infiltrator used to be balanced, but right now the Jackal is far too versatile. This, I believe, would be balanced by slowing the firing speed considerably, turning it into a tactical tool instead of an 'I win' device. The Juggernaut is also a bit OP by virtue of being able to do anything except chase and cap as well as a class designed for a specific role. Technicians with thumpers are also a bit too powerful, though only slightly. Soldier and DMB are slightly underpowered while the Brute is virtually a one-trick pony - if a brute beats me with something other than a fractal I respect that player. If I am killed by a fractal, I laugh at my own folly. This is of course my perception - I have barely played anything other than Raider (90%), DMB, Juggernaut and Tech and have not tried anything more complex than a public match, though I have won plenty of those as #1.
Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:48 am

poiumty Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:07 pm Posts: 221	Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage. -AEnubis- wrote: Well, that's the other sad part, is they have flattened out the learning curve, and wrecked balance in favor of sales. I never even knew how to ski in Tribes, and I'm grabbing at almost 300 sanics in a couple months here, not to mention owning face with autos like it's no big deal. And this comes as a surprise to you? That you're better when you have more experience with a particular type of game? What's more idiotic is that you're using this to argue learning curves. For some reason, learning curves should be REALLY STEEP so only the truly dedicated remain in the game. Ignoring the fact that this would kill the game in an instant in this day and age. Also, I'm curious. How many FPS did you play before you played Tribes, and at what level?
Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:20 am

Varnas Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:25 am Posts: 772 Location: Lithuania	Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage. Icedaemon wrote: So, I made an account specifically to state this: The cluster grenade does look like it could be a bit overpowered, this coming from someone who barely plays anything but raider. However, a weapon's balance can depend on how its upgrades work. If the current EMP grenade stays at 2/maxed out with +1 when using Safety Third, while even when wholly upgraded only one cluster bomb (or 2 with Safety Third) could be carried, they would I believe be nicely balanced in regards to one another - at most 2 cluster grenades makes them a precious resource, to be used only when one is certain they would result in at least one kill I cannot easily make with my main weapon. A tactic I often use when forced to play Emergency Llama is tossing my remaining grenades at my feet or behind myself when speeding towards my base. As the EMP grenade only explodes after a set amount of time, not on impact, it does not endanger myself but can kill a chaser. A clusterbomb would be much better at this, turning the raider into a good capper, further imbalancing the game. Maybe I am weird, but I do not desire OP weapons - my victory ought to be due to skill. The SMG is already better in several situations than the chaingun, but this insofar seems excusable as using the ARX buster or grenade launcher in outdoor combat is extremely tricky and an equally skilled soldier with a spinfusor tends to kill me unless I am very unpredictable in using my jets. The Raider as is feels balanced, if one assumes that the Pathfinder, Raider and Sentinel are on par and thus, as 3 out of 9, the more balanced party. The Infiltrator used to be balanced, but right now the Jackal is far too versatile. This, I believe, would be balanced by slowing the firing speed considerably, turning it into a tactical tool instead of an 'I win' device. The Juggernaut is also a bit OP by virtue of being able to do anything except chase and cap as well as a class designed for a specific role. Technicians with thumpers are also a bit too powerful, though only slightly. Soldier and DMB are slightly underpowered while the Brute is virtually a one-trick pony - if a brute beats me with something other than a fractal I respect that player. If I am killed by a fractal, I laugh at my own folly. This is of course my perception - I have barely played anything other than Raider (90%), DMB, Juggernaut and Tech and have not tried anything more complex than a public match, though I have won plenty of those as #1. You get the same ammount of cluster f*cks as emp nades just pointing that out
Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:42 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4865 Location: NA East	Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage. Disappointed =! Surprised. Yeah, I'm experienced. I'm not saying I wanted this to be so hard, that only a small percentage of people would stick with it, but a challenge would be nice. They could have made the game a touch more difficult considering people weren't going to spend $60 then decide the game was too hard, and not be able to get their money back. The health and equipment systems are a huge dial down from the old Tribes, and makes for learning a lot less, and I'm okay with that. The botched fishycs is not okay though, nor is the lack of equipment balance. This actually creates a side step in the learning process, things like weird inheritance values, limited f=ma, and limited gravity... also an unnatural gravitation towards weapons and equipment that are easier to use, and arguably OP. Then you have a scoring system for CTF that rewards more in the long run for fragging than anything else... Basically calling it Tribes usually meant it was a heavy skill game, with realistic physics, and good CTF with side objectives. Ascend isn't. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:24 pm

Wobberjockey Beta Tester Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am Posts: 8726 Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere	Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage. SkepticTA wrote: The new cluster grenades look to me like a thrown MIRV round, and a natural cousin to the EMP which is pretty much a thrown mortar. Raider and Jugg are both assault classes, so I think there's a pattern emerging here. this is actually very accurate. the spread on the cluster nades seems to be larger than the MIRV. (probably the same force, but a lighter projectile, so more distance) i tried tossing quite a few at generators today, and getting all the bomblets to land near the gen (and not in a bottomless pit nearby) was tricky. i usually only did about 4-8oo damage, if i was lucky, it was much better... which is the same issue the mirv has _________________ original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read
Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:48 pm

Icedaemon Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:30 am Posts: 221	Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage. So, clusterbombs aren't inherently OP? Haven't bought a pack yet, but probably will then. The Plasma Gun seems more geared towards outdoor combat than the ARX or grenade launcher, so I might not actually use that one - SMGs are sufficient in the great outdoors. The few matches I had time to play today did not make the new gear look decidedly overpowered. This might have been an acceptable update after all.
Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:04 pm

haque Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:53 am Posts: 383	Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage. Cluster nades are nasty indoors, but not game-wrecking. Plasma on the other hand right now, is. Gun is sick as faq, we can only hope they fix hitbox detection in the VERY least. _________________ patchnotes wrote: Voicepacks are now available to purchase.
Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:43 pm

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New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage.

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MrLordcaptain

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm
Posts: 654

Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage.

SkepticTA wrote:

Fractal grenades are supposed to be anti-personnel for the purpose of area denial, hence the very large radius and duration. Brute is a duelist class, not an assault class.

The new cluster grenades look to me like a thrown MIRV round, and a natural cousin to the EMP which is pretty much a thrown mortar. Raider and Jugg are both assault classes, so I think there's a pattern emerging here.

And how since every f***ing autoweapon rapes him, his shield pack does take one hit and you are without movement.
Btw. duelling; LMG and thrown discs? THATS a duelling class (and assault)

_________________
Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns

Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:04 am

Pkunk

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:42 am
Posts: 351

Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage.

-AEnubis- wrote:

This makes me sad, for I was hoping they could use the free2play model to circumvent the huge Tribes learning curve, and more people would work to overcome it since it's free.

But they kinda did that. There is close to none learning curve with using the automatic weapons.
Go raider with shield pack and the horrible spamgun they get and you don't even have to leave the ground.

Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:05 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4865
Location: NA East

Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage.

Well, that's the other sad part, is they have flattened out the learning curve, and wrecked balance in favor of sales. I never even knew how to ski in Tribes, and I'm grabbing at almost 300 sanics in a couple months here, not to mention owning face with autos like it's no big deal.

It took me a couple weeks just to get my first frag in Tribes. Cognitive dissonance my ass, this game was too easy.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:41 am

Icedaemon

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:30 am
Posts: 221

Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage.

So, I made an account specifically to state this:
The cluster grenade does look like it could be a bit overpowered, this coming from someone who barely plays anything but raider. However, a weapon's balance can depend on how its upgrades work.

If the current EMP grenade stays at 2/maxed out with +1 when using Safety Third, while even when wholly upgraded only one cluster bomb (or 2 with Safety Third) could be carried, they would I believe be nicely balanced in regards to one another - at most 2 cluster grenades makes them a precious resource, to be used only when one is certain they would result in at least one kill I cannot easily make with my main weapon.

A tactic I often use when forced to play Emergency Llama is tossing my remaining grenades at my feet or behind myself when speeding towards my base. As the EMP grenade only explodes after a set amount of time, not on impact, it does not endanger myself but can kill a chaser. A clusterbomb would be much better at this, turning the raider into a good capper, further imbalancing the game.

Maybe I am weird, but I do not desire OP weapons - my victory ought to be due to skill. The SMG is already better in several situations than the chaingun, but this insofar seems excusable as using the ARX buster or grenade launcher in outdoor combat is extremely tricky and an equally skilled soldier with a spinfusor tends to kill me unless I am very unpredictable in using my jets.

The Raider as is feels balanced, if one assumes that the Pathfinder, Raider and Sentinel are on par and thus, as 3 out of 9, the more balanced party. The Infiltrator used to be balanced, but right now the Jackal is far too versatile. This, I believe, would be balanced by slowing the firing speed considerably, turning it into a tactical tool instead of an 'I win' device. The Juggernaut is also a bit OP by virtue of being able to do anything except chase and cap as well as a class designed for a specific role. Technicians with thumpers are also a bit too powerful, though only slightly. Soldier and DMB are slightly underpowered while the Brute is virtually a one-trick pony - if a brute beats me with something other than a fractal I respect that player. If I am killed by a fractal, I laugh at my own folly.

This is of course my perception - I have barely played anything other than Raider (90%), DMB, Juggernaut and Tech and have not tried anything more complex than a public match, though I have won plenty of those as #1.

Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:48 am

poiumty

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:07 pm
Posts: 221

Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage.

-AEnubis- wrote:

And this comes as a surprise to you? That you're better when you have more experience with a particular type of game?

What's more idiotic is that you're using this to argue learning curves. For some reason, learning curves should be REALLY STEEP so only the truly dedicated remain in the game. Ignoring the fact that this would kill the game in an instant in this day and age.

Also, I'm curious. How many FPS did you play before you played Tribes, and at what level?

Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:20 am

Varnas

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:25 am
Posts: 772
Location: Lithuania

Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage.

Icedaemon wrote:

You get the same ammount of cluster f*cks as emp nades just pointing that out

Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:42 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4865
Location: NA East

Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage.

Disappointed =! Surprised.

Yeah, I'm experienced. I'm not saying I wanted this to be so hard, that only a small percentage of people would stick with it, but a challenge would be nice. They could have made the game a touch more difficult considering people weren't going to spend $60 then decide the game was too hard, and not be able to get their money back.

The health and equipment systems are a huge dial down from the old Tribes, and makes for learning a lot less, and I'm okay with that. The botched fishycs is not okay though, nor is the lack of equipment balance. This actually creates a side step in the learning process, things like weird inheritance values, limited f=ma, and limited gravity... also an unnatural gravitation towards weapons and equipment that are easier to use, and arguably OP. Then you have a scoring system for CTF that rewards more in the long run for fragging than anything else...

Basically calling it Tribes usually meant it was a heavy skill game, with realistic physics, and good CTF with side objectives. Ascend isn't.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:24 pm

Wobberjockey

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am
Posts: 8726
Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere

Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage.

SkepticTA wrote:

The new cluster grenades look to me like a thrown MIRV round, and a natural cousin to the EMP which is pretty much a thrown mortar. Raider and Jugg are both assault classes, so I think there's a pattern emerging here.

this is actually very accurate. the spread on the cluster nades seems to be larger than the MIRV. (probably the same force, but a lighter projectile, so more distance)

i tried tossing quite a few at generators today, and getting all the bomblets to land near the gen (and not in a bottomless pit nearby) was tricky. i usually only did about 4-8oo damage, if i was lucky, it was much better...
which is the same issue the mirv has

_________________

original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig
The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read

Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:48 pm

Icedaemon

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:30 am
Posts: 221

Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage.

So, clusterbombs aren't inherently OP? Haven't bought a pack yet, but probably will then. The Plasma Gun seems more geared towards outdoor combat than the ARX or grenade launcher, so I might not actually use that one - SMGs are sufficient in the great outdoors.

The few matches I had time to play today did not make the new gear look decidedly overpowered. This might have been an acceptable update after all.

Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:04 pm

haque

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:53 am
Posts: 383

Re: New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage.

Cluster nades are nasty indoors, but not game-wrecking.

Plasma on the other hand right now, is. Gun is sick as faq, we can only hope they fix hitbox detection in the VERY least.

_________________

patchnotes wrote:

Voicepacks are now available to purchase.

Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:43 pm

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New Cluster Grenade vs Fractal RE: Gen Damage.