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Why do automatics reward low latency?
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sleepytime Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:36 pm Posts: 21	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? agreed. I live down the street from the atlanta servers and get 0 ping most of the time. not only am I already sick nasty at video games; it is completely unfair being given an additional advantage just due to my location. _________________ ~~THANKS FOR READING MY POSTS AND GOD BLESS~~ check out my tumbler dot com website http://enjoyaberry.tumblr.com/
Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:33 pm

hvcterr Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am Posts: 1567	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? yarlesp wrote: you can hold your own in quake 3 with 100ms pings because quake implements a system similar to the one people are asking for here even though it's not 100% lagless. AFAIK your statement is incorrect. "Quake 3", out of the box, does not implement such a system. You have to install a third-party plugin/patch to get it. The link you gave as "what Quake 3 implements" actually describes a separate implementation for the Source Engine. The Valve Developer Community wiki has some much more accessible wiki-style entries. Source_Multiplayer_Networking: Lag_compensation Latency Compensating Methods in Client/Server In-game Protocol Design and Optimization In addition, T:As automatics fire their projectiles slowly enough that they are still a bad fit for lag-compensation: Valve Developer Wiki wrote: For weapons that fire projectiles, lag compensation is more problematic. For instance, if the projectile lives autonomously on the server, then what time space should the projectile live in? Does every other player need to be "moved backward" every time the projectile is ready to be simulated and moved by the server? If so, how far backward in time should the other players be moved? These are interesting questions to consider. In Half-Life, we avoided them; we simply don't lag compensate projectile objects (that's not to say that we don't predict the sound of you firing the projectile on the client, just that the actual projectile is not lag compensated in any way). To illustrate why this is a problem, consider the extreme example of a spinfusor fired by a 200-ping opponent. Everyone else might see a the disc simply teleport into existence a long way from the shooter, and then you repeatedly die to shots that appeared to miss on your own screen. And that's the "good" scenario... _________________ Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:33 pm

Litego Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:12 pm Posts: 5538 Location: North Cape - Norway	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? I've been saying this since before they changed them from hitscan. I said it was going to be bad for high ping players because the netcode is so terrible. hvcterr wrote: To illustrate why this is a problem, consider the extreme example of a spinfusor fired by a 200-ping opponent. Everyone else might see a the disc simply teleport into existence a long way from the shooter, and then you repeatedly die to shots that appeared to miss on your own screen. And that's the "good" scenario... The problem is not with spinfusors though, it is with MGs. And MGs go fast enough that you can not dodge them, so it really doesn't matter if the receiving player sees them a little different. Look at battlefield, all their guns are projectiles, and everything is lag compensated. Sure they are faster, but a long range sniper shot still has a good amount of travel time. Firefall is also using projectiles, and everything is lag compensated, even the slow moving projectiles. If travel time becomes a problem I would rather have them set a max range on all automatics at which point they would cease to exist, with a smooth fall off to that point. You can't really snipe with them anyways, except against noobs, but who cares about that? Right now it is a significant advantage to having low ping, it pretty much means everything with automatics, which makes the game balance really f*** up. If we had lag compensation for them we wouldn't need 100 nerf automatics threads because it would be easy to balance. Right now the difference in effectiveness with these weapons are huge! In a duel with two equally skilled players, it is always the one with the lowest ping that will win, this is sad. In other games ping is obviously a disadvantage, but there it is only a matter of killing the other guy 50ms before he kills you, no extra leading or anything like that. So 95% of the time you don't notice the ping disadvantage, that's how it should be. _________________ Lag spike + lag compensation = lols
Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:06 pm

lawlertron Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:07 pm Posts: 517	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? lamebot wrote: Why do automatics reward low latency? Because I have a fiber optic connection to my house and u mad about it.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:31 pm

starlinvf Beta Tester Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:31 am Posts: 1478	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? lawlertron wrote: lamebot wrote: Why do automatics reward low latency? Because I have a fiber optic connection to my house and u mad about it. The jokes on you. That fiber is actually glass, and not at all heart friendly. _________________ "Even if it is just a gimmick, you can bet it'll be a crowd pleaser to see a player's feet kick up in the air and initiate a top down attack."
Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:33 pm

deathnoise Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:27 pm Posts: 186	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? OuchMyBoobies wrote: this is the way all fps shooters are. low latency makes aiming easier, and beyond netcode optimization (or better server locations?) there's nothing you can do about it. also, while having low ping is nice, it is certainly not necessary to do well. i've seen plenty of people own in quake 3 with 100ms pings. i can hold my on with 150ms ping on the london server...it's not ideal, but i can manage. i don't know what you expect...it's the way it's always been, and always will be. latency in fps shooters is a variable outside their control. Your argument is invalid, as all other games are using hitscan weapons, with people moving around at much slower speeds, so there are no latency issues, unless someone hits 200ms ping. There is also no need to aim differently. T:A relies heavily on leading the targets, because automatics are not hitscan. With different ping you need to lead differently. That alone makes the game broken. Now - combine that with people moving around at decent speeds..
Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:46 am

irimi Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am Posts: 478	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? hvcterr wrote: Valve Developer Wiki wrote: For weapons that fire projectiles, lag compensation is more problematic. For instance, if the projectile lives autonomously on the server, then what time space should the projectile live in? Does every other player need to be "moved backward" every time the projectile is ready to be simulated and moved by the server? If so, how far backward in time should the other players be moved? These are interesting questions to consider. In Half-Life, we avoided them; we simply don't lag compensate projectile objects (that's not to say that we don't predict the sound of you firing the projectile on the client, just that the actual projectile is not lag compensated in any way). To illustrate why this is a problem, consider the extreme example of a spinfusor fired by a 200-ping opponent. Everyone else might see a the disc simply teleport into existence a long way from the shooter, and then you repeatedly die to shots that appeared to miss on your own screen. And that's the "good" scenario... Awesome. Rational justification for what I posted based on intuition. This makes a lot of sense. Let's also not forget that it would royally screw with your movement/skiing. You could think that you just cleared a hill or something, but the game decides that you actually got hit and bounced into a rock 250ms ago. What then? deathnoise wrote: Your argument is invalid, as all other games are using hitscan weapons, with people moving around at much slower speeds, so there are no latency issues, unless someone hits 200ms ping. There is also no need to aim differently. T:A relies heavily on leading the targets, because automatics are not hitscan. With different ping you need to lead differently. That alone makes the game broken. Now - combine that with people moving around at decent speeds.. You don't seem to understand what lag compensation does.
Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:42 am

videoP Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:08 am Posts: 113	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? irimi wrote: You don't seem to understand what lag compensation does. I think almost no one in this thread does, especially the guy who thinks quake unlagged affects projectiles- it doesn't. _________________
Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:49 am

Litego Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:12 pm Posts: 5538 Location: North Cape - Norway	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? irimi wrote: Let's also not forget that it would royally screw with your movement/skiing. You could think that you just cleared a hill or something, but the game decides that you actually got hit and bounced into a rock 250ms ago. What then? Yeah except that it would never happen because automatics don't have knockback. This thread is about automatics, not spinfusors, boltlaunchers, thumpers and other slow moving explosives. _________________ Lag spike + lag compensation = lols
Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:57 am

hvcterr Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am Posts: 1567	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? Litego wrote: And MGs go fast enough that you can not dodge them Depends on the range. Start talking about some Raider-vs-Jugg stuff on Raindance, it it definitely enters into the equation. Quote: Look at battlefield, all their guns are projectiles, and everything is lag compensated. [Citation Needed] I don't consider client-side prediction nor interpolation to qualify as lag-compensation in the context of this discussion. videoP wrote: especially the guy who thinks quake unlagged affects projectiles- it doesn't. Yeah, I'm not aware of any system that can sanely lag-compensate rocket-style projectiles in an FPS: It's simply not logically possible without serious compromises in how you manage the multiple versions of the world held by clients and the server. It's all bound up in issues of delayed cause-and-effect. irimi wrote: Let's also not forget that it would royally screw with your movement/skiing. You could think that you just cleared a hill or something, but the game decides that you actually got hit and bounced into a rock 250ms ago. What then? While that is a real thing, I'd prefer to classify it as a "client-side prediction" issue, which is a separate process from lag-compensating your weapon-shots Almost every online FPS does client-side prediction, or else all basic movements would be laggy. When an "error" occurs ("oh, s***, I just told the user he jumped upwards, but the platform disappeared below him first") they typically solve it by "smoothing", to minimize jerks/warps. _________________ Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.
Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:25 am

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Why do automatics reward low latency?

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sleepytime

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:36 pm
Posts: 21

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

agreed. I live down the street from the atlanta servers and get 0 ping most of the time.

not only am I already sick nasty at video games; it is completely unfair being given an additional advantage just due to my location.

_________________
~~THANKS FOR READING MY POSTS AND GOD BLESS~~

check out my tumbler dot com website http://enjoyaberry.tumblr.com/

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:33 pm

hvcterr

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am
Posts: 1567

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

yarlesp wrote:

you can hold your own in quake 3 with 100ms pings because quake implements a system similar to the one people are asking for here even though it's not 100% lagless.

AFAIK your statement is incorrect. "Quake 3", out of the box, does not implement such a system. You have to install a third-party plugin/patch to get it.
The link you gave as "what Quake 3 implements" actually describes a separate implementation for the Source Engine. The Valve Developer Community wiki has some much more accessible wiki-style entries.
- Source_Multiplayer_Networking: Lag_compensation
- Latency Compensating Methods in Client/Server In-game Protocol Design and Optimization

In addition, T:As automatics fire their projectiles slowly enough that they are still a bad fit for lag-compensation:

Valve Developer Wiki wrote:

For weapons that fire projectiles, lag compensation is more problematic. For instance, if the projectile lives autonomously on the server, then what time space should the projectile live in? Does every other player need to be "moved backward" every time the projectile is ready to be simulated and moved by the server? If so, how far backward in time should the other players be moved? These are interesting questions to consider. In Half-Life, we avoided them; we simply don't lag compensate projectile objects (that's not to say that we don't predict the sound of you firing the projectile on the client, just that the actual projectile is not lag compensated in any way).

To illustrate why this is a problem, consider the extreme example of a spinfusor fired by a 200-ping opponent. Everyone else might see a the disc simply teleport into existence a long way from the shooter, and then you repeatedly die to shots that appeared to miss on your own screen. And that's the "good" scenario...

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Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:33 pm

Litego

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:12 pm
Posts: 5538
Location: North Cape - Norway

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

I've been saying this since before they changed them from hitscan. I said it was going to be bad for high ping players because the netcode is so terrible.

hvcterr wrote:

The problem is not with spinfusors though, it is with MGs. And MGs go fast enough that you can not dodge them, so it really doesn't matter if the receiving player sees them a little different. Look at battlefield, all their guns are projectiles, and everything is lag compensated. Sure they are faster, but a long range sniper shot still has a good amount of travel time. Firefall is also using projectiles, and everything is lag compensated, even the slow moving projectiles.

If travel time becomes a problem I would rather have them set a max range on all automatics at which point they would cease to exist, with a smooth fall off to that point. You can't really snipe with them anyways, except against noobs, but who cares about that?

Right now it is a significant advantage to having low ping, it pretty much means everything with automatics, which makes the game balance really f*** up. If we had lag compensation for them we wouldn't need 100 nerf automatics threads because it would be easy to balance. Right now the difference in effectiveness with these weapons are huge! In a duel with two equally skilled players, it is always the one with the lowest ping that will win, this is sad. In other games ping is obviously a disadvantage, but there it is only a matter of killing the other guy 50ms before he kills you, no extra leading or anything like that. So 95% of the time you don't notice the ping disadvantage, that's how it should be.

_________________
Lag spike + lag compensation = lols

Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:06 pm

lawlertron

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:07 pm
Posts: 517

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

lamebot wrote:

Why do automatics reward low latency?

Because I have a fiber optic connection to my house and u mad about it.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:31 pm

starlinvf

Beta Tester

Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:31 am
Posts: 1478

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

lawlertron wrote:

lamebot wrote:

Why do automatics reward low latency?

Because I have a fiber optic connection to my house and u mad about it.

The jokes on you. That fiber is actually glass, and not at all heart friendly.

_________________
"Even if it is just a gimmick, you can bet it'll be a crowd pleaser to see a player's feet kick up in the air and initiate a top down attack."

Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:33 pm

deathnoise

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:27 pm
Posts: 186

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

OuchMyBoobies wrote:

this is the way all fps shooters are. low latency makes aiming easier, and beyond netcode optimization (or better server locations?) there's nothing you can do about it. also, while having low ping is nice, it is certainly not necessary to do well. i've seen plenty of people own in quake 3 with 100ms pings. i can hold my on with 150ms ping on the london server...it's not ideal, but i can manage.

i don't know what you expect...it's the way it's always been, and always will be. latency in fps shooters is a variable outside their control.

Your argument is invalid, as all other games are using hitscan weapons, with people moving around at much slower speeds, so there are no latency issues, unless someone hits 200ms ping. There is also no need to aim differently.

T:A relies heavily on leading the targets, because automatics are not hitscan. With different ping you need to lead differently. That alone makes the game broken.
Now - combine that with people moving around at decent speeds..

Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:46 am

irimi

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am
Posts: 478

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

hvcterr wrote:

Valve Developer Wiki wrote:

Awesome. Rational justification for what I posted based on intuition. This makes a lot of sense.

Let's also not forget that it would royally screw with your movement/skiing. You could think that you just cleared a hill or something, but the game decides that you actually got hit and bounced into a rock 250ms ago. What then?

deathnoise wrote:

You don't seem to understand what lag compensation does.

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:42 am

videoP

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:08 am
Posts: 113

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

irimi wrote:

You don't seem to understand what lag compensation does.

I think almost no one in this thread does, especially the guy who thinks quake unlagged affects projectiles- it doesn't.

_________________

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:49 am

Litego

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:12 pm
Posts: 5538
Location: North Cape - Norway

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

irimi wrote:

Let's also not forget that it would royally screw with your movement/skiing. You could think that you just cleared a hill or something, but the game decides that you actually got hit and bounced into a rock 250ms ago. What then?

Yeah except that it would never happen because automatics don't have knockback. This thread is about automatics, not spinfusors, boltlaunchers, thumpers and other slow moving explosives.

_________________
Lag spike + lag compensation = lols

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:57 am

hvcterr

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am
Posts: 1567

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

Litego wrote:

And MGs go fast enough that you can not dodge them

Depends on the range. Start talking about some Raider-vs-Jugg stuff on Raindance, it it definitely enters into the equation.

Quote:

Look at battlefield, all their guns are projectiles, and everything is lag compensated.

[Citation Needed]

I don't consider client-side prediction nor interpolation to qualify as lag-compensation in the context of this discussion.

videoP wrote:

especially the guy who thinks quake unlagged affects projectiles- it doesn't.

Yeah, I'm not aware of any system that can sanely lag-compensate rocket-style projectiles in an FPS: It's simply not logically possible without serious compromises in how you manage the multiple versions of the world held by clients and the server. It's all bound up in issues of delayed cause-and-effect.

irimi wrote:

While that is a real thing, I'd prefer to classify it as a "client-side prediction" issue, which is a separate process from lag-compensating your weapon-shots Almost every online FPS does client-side prediction, or else all basic movements would be laggy. When an "error" occurs ("oh, s***, I just told the user he jumped upwards, but the platform disappeared below him first") they typically solve it by "smoothing", to minimize jerks/warps.

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Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:25 am

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Why do automatics reward low latency?