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Automatic weapon balance?
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shazbeta Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:07 pm Posts: 185	Re: Automatic weapon balance? I'd just like to put an argument to the people who believe that the autos only need a small nerf (i.e. <30%): When comparing the damage done by the automatics Vs. the projectiles, we consider damage-over-time. Currently, the damage-over-time for the autos is roughly equal to (or may be even more than) the projectiles. With only a small reduction in damage, the autos would still deal only slightly less damage than the projectiles. (In my opinion) the autos need to do significantly less damage than the projectiles (e.g. deal 50% - 75% of the damage of projectiles) to balance out all of the advantages that the autos have over the projectiles. Currently, the only advantages the projectiles have, are a little bit of knockback and splash damage, and that doesn't apply when an opponent is in the air, or if for any other reason, there is no "line of splash". Even if the automatics did less damage, they would still have the advantages of 1) projectile speed, 2) rate of fire/shots in the air, 3) tracers/walking fire onto target, all of which mean 4) easier to aim. 5) increased range, 6) guaranteed regen cancel, 7) increased ability to reveal Infiltrators, 8) increased effectiveness against targets in the air (this may be more a function of the weak jetpacks or "broken physics" that I see people mentioning. [VGRD], I defer to people with greater knowledge on the subject, however the absolute increase would be less, if the weapons were less effective overall), 9) less "downtime"/greater damage consistency (i.e. even if an auto and a projectile did 910 damage in exactly the same amount of time, the auto will do 920 in 1/2 the time), 10) impossible to damage self/suicide 11) easier to get assists, 12) easier to get kill credits. Arguably, the last 2 don't affect gameplay, but some people do play for points. Someone mentioned earlier (unfortunately, I can't find the post, or remember your nick, sorry) that it's a case of risk Vs. reward, and it's a perfect summation. Essentially, you should have the choice to deal a guaranteed x damage over y seconds with an automatic weapon, or 2x damage over y seconds with a projectile weapon, but there's a 50% chance you'll f*** it up. For the record (and contrary to what has been stated numerous times in this thread), although I would like the projectile weapons to play a primary role, and automatic weapons to be secondary, I've never played either of the previous Tribes games, but I have played T:A matches where all (or almost all) of the players used exclusively projectile weapons. In my opinion (and coincidentally, those of the other players in the server), it was a lot of fun. What brought me to Tribes: Ascend was the accurate weapons. What keeps me, is trying to master the midair. (Another long one I'm afraid, but hey, it's a complex subject!)
Mon May 21, 2012 9:17 pm

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4844 Location: NA East	Re: Automatic weapon balance? @shazbeta: Where as normally I'd agree with you, the projectiles in this game are not normal. The splash radius is very forgiving. It's banded, instead of a linear gradient, and the first band is about 50% of the radius. They are insanely easy, compared to other games, to get max damage with. Your list also repeats a few things, worded differently, but that's neither here nor there. Again, the Nerfing I would do is more to align the autos than anything, making the AR (relatively) better, or at least equal to the SMGs. The major adjustment should be with armor resistances to the bullet weapons. If heavies received even just a 15% resistance to all bullets, most of the 5% nerfs now become 20% to the easiest class to hit, and still stay useful against light armors. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Mon May 21, 2012 10:26 pm

pala Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:40 am Posts: 894	Re: Automatic weapon balance? Yesterday played whole evening without automatics and bullet based guns and d*** the game was hard. It reminded me of tribes! I seriously hope they will nerf in upcoming patch: Falcon - 5 damage Nj4 - 10 damage nf5 -10 damage LAR - 5 damage Rhino - 5 damage Heavy machine gun (jugge / doom): - 10 damage AR - 5 damage - Bring the disc as primary gun for all classes - Remove the shaky efect when you are hit by automatic. You cant miss with automatics so its mostly annoying for all. _________________
Tue May 22, 2012 1:09 am

Nuggetman Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:23 am Posts: 135	Re: Automatic weapon balance? shazbeta wrote: I'd just like to put an argument to the people who believe that the autos only need a small nerf (i.e. <30%): When comparing the damage done by the automatics Vs. the projectiles, we consider damage-over-time. Currently, the damage-over-time for the autos is roughly equal to (or may be even more than) the projectiles. With only a small reduction in damage, the autos would still deal only slightly less damage than the projectiles. Popping in here rq, haven't been in this thread in a while. Ig think the damage over time idea is inaccurate. Damage over time would be more like a passive poison effect where I hit you with 1 shot, but you continue to take damage over time even if I do not have you in my sights (You see a lot of this with poison medic in GA). Using automatics is more like using a channeled effect since you can't use any other ability's really while channeling your bullets into that person. I don't think tribes actually has any dot type weapons at this time. Turrets and fractals might be the only example of somethin that is similar to a dot, but more like shaman totems from WoW really. If you played a medic in GA for any period of time you know what I am talking about. Right now I see 2 types of damage caused by players in tribes. Channeled = automatics/pistols Burst = Explosives Shotguns fall in between the 2 categories imo. In case I misread what you meant by Damage over time then my second response is that the automatics should probably be around the same dps or slightly less than the explosive weapons. You trade off mad splash damage and knockback/disorientation for an easier aim at range. I was complaining about the screen cracking and shaking from auto fire, but the more I play I can't help but think maybe the projectiles from the automatics are just a little bit to fast when also coupled with the screen cracking. I think if the bullets fired at the projectile speed of the nj5 or possibly even the chaingun, but kept the same dmg #'s and RoF it may require more skill to use. (I used this as an example because the nj5 and chaingun seem to have slower bullets than other autos) I still think they need a small nerf Too bad there isn't more tools in place so we the community can test these things at our leisure instead of just assuming this or that. _________________
Tue May 22, 2012 3:46 pm

Melanious Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:22 pm Posts: 1988 Location: NA West	Re: Automatic weapon balance? I think its funny HiRez decided to nerf the Jackal (an explosive weapon) further yet leaves autos as they are. I am definitely not here to argue their OP nature but really.. I can still easily dodge jackal compared to a jugg walking on the ground with an LMG. No offense to anyone here but I'm tired of logging in to these forums to see the same arguments rehashed over and over with no action from HiRez. This isn't the tribes of old, it's what other people have appropriately deemed it "Call of Tribes". I'm very disappointed, especially with all the useful compromises that have been brought up in these forums. I wanted to see this game succeed but with all the glaring issues being ignored with a ZOMG 4% JACKAL DMG DECREASE!!!! come on now. I'm happy for the brutes don't get me wrong. I regret spending my money on "Call of Tribes" now and I'm done holding onto the dream T1 & T2 will be done justice through this game. I hope the constant frequenters of this and the other 200+ page thread will take the hint from HiRez and stop giving them more room to trample over the Tribes name. Time to leave and let this old dog die. I hope everyone has fun flying around with their autos.. I will go play a good title that was built for automatic guns called Call of Duty. _________________ Unstoppable Mid Air Disks - NA West
Tue May 22, 2012 5:28 pm

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4844 Location: NA East	Re: Automatic weapon balance? Well, the repeated arguments is more about not doing the research. Some of these discussions span many old, and very long threads, not to mention changing with each new patch that adjusts anything related. Then there are just the newbs who simply don't understand the concepts which they submit their subjective feelings on. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Tue May 22, 2012 9:18 pm

lHEXENl Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:41 pm Posts: 96	Re: Automatic weapon balance? Melanious wrote: This isn't the tribes of old, it's what other people have appropriately deemed it "Call of Tribes". I'm very disappointed, especially with all the useful compromises that have been brought up in these forums. This really makes me lol. Comparing this game to such trash as CoD isn't fair nor reasonable in any way, shape or form. It's a knee jerk reaction to describe a gaming element that a particular player doesn't like. To be completely honest, anyone who claims this game is in any way similar to CoD is smoking the hyperbole. see what I did there? CoD has laser weaponry with no recoil, spread, deviation or travel time. Kills are achieved in under half a second in the majority of encounters because TTK is so ludicrously low that engagements aren't a matter of skill but a matter of who fires first. Maps consist of corridors strung together in a leapfrog fashion, with tiny rooms or clearings interspersed between them. Explosive weaponry is an "i win" button. There is no dynamic movement, near ALL weapons are hitscan, innovation insofar as gameplay is akin to a box of nails and "skill" in those games, if you can even call it that, is boiled down to twitch reflex, camping and lone ranger gameplay tactics. Comparing T:A with CoD/MW is so incredibly extremist that you may as well don a goofy name and threaten to blow up public places. The only similarity these two games share is that they put you behind the same gaming wheel: FPS. The art direction, weapon mechanics, physics, strategies, maps, target audience, platform, macro mechanics (ski/jetpack) are all so wildly different that you could move a freighter between them and have room to spare. If you want to compare T:A with previous Tribes titles, fine. But don't be slanderous and akin it to the lowest common denominator in an attempt to sell your point of view. It's childish and moves far past the frontier of any sane argument or comparison. _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/hexentv1/videos
Wed May 23, 2012 12:59 am

FreaK367 Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm Posts: 587 Location: England Steam Gamer Name: FreaK	Re: Automatic weapon balance? If there was any nerf to the damage less than 25%, bullet resistance should be added. Like, Light: 0%, Medum: 10% Heavy: 20%, or something like that. Any small nerfs, like what the Jackal just got, 4% (HOLY CRAP), would do very little to automatics, they could afford to lose atleast 10% damage and still be incredibly dominant, it wouldn't really phase them. I want the DPS brought down to between 500 - 600. I can't tell if it's getting worse of if I'm just noticing more, but sometimes I see entire servers using automatics, I've been playing C&H more often because CTF is pretty much dead to me due to the automatics and other issues. But C&H is becoming or has become an automatic dominated gamemode , everyone just runs around spraying eachother. People don't seem to think explosives are very reliable. Even when I go on one of my epic never dying sprees showcasing explosives, then trying to get people interested in learning to use explosives, nobody listens Didn't stop every one of them trying to duel and gang up on me, I felt like a teacher by the end. Everyone should master explosives, for the greater good. _________________ Desired: Bind VGS commands to keys. Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap) Large Automatic Nerfs Decent Plasma Gun Nerf Large Jackal Nerf
Wed May 23, 2012 3:00 am

Cyanistic Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:16 pm Posts: 3783 Steam Gamer Name: Cyanistic	Re: Automatic weapon balance? Hey. Stop copying my characters.
Wed May 23, 2012 3:07 am

FreaK367 Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm Posts: 587 Location: England Steam Gamer Name: FreaK	Re: Automatic weapon balance? Cyanistic wrote: Hey. Stop copying my characters. Never!, also, that is possibly the best symbol ever, I have already spammed Facebook with it and several web based games with it, so funky. Where did you find it? o_O, it seems like it has virtually no uses in normal conversation. Unless it is in a different language, I don't learn other languages :/ Edit: How the hell have you posted 2500+ times in only 3 months? Edit: Edit: You joined on my Birthday. _________________ Desired: Bind VGS commands to keys. Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap) Large Automatic Nerfs Decent Plasma Gun Nerf Large Jackal Nerf
Wed May 23, 2012 3:12 am

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Automatic weapon balance?

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shazbeta

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:07 pm
Posts: 185

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

I'd just like to put an argument to the people who believe that the autos only need a small nerf (i.e. <30%):

When comparing the damage done by the automatics Vs. the projectiles, we consider damage-over-time. Currently, the damage-over-time for the autos is roughly equal to (or may be even more than) the projectiles. With only a small reduction in damage, the autos would still deal only slightly less damage than the projectiles.

(In my opinion) the autos need to do significantly less damage than the projectiles (e.g. deal 50% - 75% of the damage of projectiles) to balance out all of the advantages that the autos have over the projectiles.

Currently, the only advantages the projectiles have, are a little bit of knockback and splash damage, and that doesn't apply when an opponent is in the air, or if for any other reason, there is no "line of splash". Even if the automatics did less damage, they would still have the advantages of 1) projectile speed, 2) rate of fire/shots in the air, 3) tracers/walking fire onto target, all of which mean 4) easier to aim. 5) increased range, 6) guaranteed regen cancel, 7) increased ability to reveal Infiltrators, 8) increased effectiveness against targets in the air (this may be more a function of the weak jetpacks or "broken physics" that I see people mentioning. [VGRD], I defer to people with greater knowledge on the subject, however the absolute increase would be less, if the weapons were less effective overall), 9) less "downtime"/greater damage consistency (i.e. even if an auto and a projectile did 910 damage in exactly the same amount of time, the auto will do 920 in 1/2 the time), 10) impossible to damage self/suicide 11) easier to get assists, 12) easier to get kill credits. Arguably, the last 2 don't affect gameplay, but some people do play for points.

Someone mentioned earlier (unfortunately, I can't find the post, or remember your nick, sorry) that it's a case of risk Vs. reward, and it's a perfect summation. Essentially, you should have the choice to deal a guaranteed x damage over y seconds with an automatic weapon, or 2x damage over y seconds with a projectile weapon, but there's a 50% chance you'll f*** it up.

For the record (and contrary to what has been stated numerous times in this thread), although I would like the projectile weapons to play a primary role, and automatic weapons to be secondary, I've never played either of the previous Tribes games, but I have played T:A matches where all (or almost all) of the players used exclusively projectile weapons. In my opinion (and coincidentally, those of the other players in the server), it was a lot of fun.

What brought me to Tribes: Ascend was the accurate weapons. What keeps me, is trying to master the midair.

(Another long one I'm afraid, but hey, it's a complex subject!)

Mon May 21, 2012 9:17 pm

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4844
Location: NA East

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

@shazbeta: Where as normally I'd agree with you, the projectiles in this game are not normal.

The splash radius is very forgiving. It's banded, instead of a linear gradient, and the first band is about 50% of the radius. They are insanely easy, compared to other games, to get max damage with.

Your list also repeats a few things, worded differently, but that's neither here nor there.

Again, the Nerfing I would do is more to align the autos than anything, making the AR (relatively) better, or at least equal to the SMGs. The major adjustment should be with armor resistances to the bullet weapons. If heavies received even just a 15% resistance to all bullets, most of the 5% nerfs now become 20% to the easiest class to hit, and still stay useful against light armors.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Mon May 21, 2012 10:26 pm

pala

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:40 am
Posts: 894

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

Yesterday played whole evening without automatics and bullet based guns and d*** the game was hard. It reminded me of tribes!

I seriously hope they will nerf in upcoming patch:

Falcon - 5 damage
Nj4 - 10 damage
nf5 -10 damage
LAR - 5 damage
Rhino - 5 damage
Heavy machine gun (jugge / doom): - 10 damage
AR - 5 damage

- Bring the disc as primary gun for all classes

- Remove the shaky efect when you are hit by automatic. You cant miss with automatics so its mostly annoying for all.

_________________

Tue May 22, 2012 1:09 am

Nuggetman

Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 135

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

shazbeta wrote:

Popping in here rq, haven't been in this thread in a while.

Ig think the damage over time idea is inaccurate. Damage over time would be more like a passive poison effect where I hit you with 1 shot, but you continue to take damage over time even if I do not have you in my sights (You see a lot of this with poison medic in GA). Using automatics is more like using a channeled effect since you can't use any other ability's really while channeling your bullets into that person. I don't think tribes actually has any dot type weapons at this time.

Turrets and fractals might be the only example of somethin that is similar to a dot, but more like shaman totems from WoW really. If you played a medic in GA for any period of time you know what I am talking about.

Right now I see 2 types of damage caused by players in tribes.
Channeled = automatics/pistols
Burst = Explosives

Shotguns fall in between the 2 categories imo.

In case I misread what you meant by Damage over time then my second response is that the automatics should probably be around the same dps or slightly less than the explosive weapons. You trade off mad splash damage and knockback/disorientation for an easier aim at range. I was complaining about the screen cracking and shaking from auto fire, but the more I play I can't help but think maybe the projectiles from the automatics are just a little bit to fast when also coupled with the screen cracking. I think if the bullets fired at the projectile speed of the nj5 or possibly even the chaingun, but kept the same dmg #'s and RoF it may require more skill to use.
(I used this as an example because the nj5 and chaingun seem to have slower bullets than other autos)

I still think they need a small nerf

Too bad there isn't more tools in place so we the community can test these things at our leisure instead of just assuming this or that.

_________________

Tue May 22, 2012 3:46 pm

Melanious

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:22 pm
Posts: 1988
Location: NA West

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

I think its funny HiRez decided to nerf the Jackal (an explosive weapon) further yet leaves autos as they are. I am definitely not here to argue their OP nature but really.. I can still easily dodge jackal compared to a jugg walking on the ground with an LMG.

No offense to anyone here but I'm tired of logging in to these forums to see the same arguments rehashed over and over with no action from HiRez. This isn't the tribes of old, it's what other people have appropriately deemed it "Call of Tribes". I'm very disappointed, especially with all the useful compromises that have been brought up in these forums.

I wanted to see this game succeed but with all the glaring issues being ignored with a *ZOMG 4% JACKAL DMG DECREASE!!!!* come on now. I'm happy for the brutes don't get me wrong.

I regret spending my money on "Call of Tribes" now and I'm done holding onto the dream T1 & T2 will be done justice through this game. I hope the constant frequenters of this and the other 200+ page thread will take the hint from HiRez and stop giving them more room to trample over the Tribes name. Time to leave and let this old dog die. I hope everyone has fun flying around with their autos.. I will go play a good title that was built for automatic guns called Call of Duty.

_________________

Unstoppable Mid Air Disks - NA West

Tue May 22, 2012 5:28 pm

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4844
Location: NA East

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

Well, the repeated arguments is more about not doing the research. Some of these discussions span many old, and very long threads, not to mention changing with each new patch that adjusts anything related.

Then there are just the newbs who simply don't understand the concepts which they submit their subjective feelings on.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Tue May 22, 2012 9:18 pm

lHEXENl

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:41 pm
Posts: 96

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

Melanious wrote:

This isn't the tribes of old, it's what other people have appropriately deemed it "Call of Tribes". I'm very disappointed, especially with all the useful compromises that have been brought up in these forums.

This really makes me lol.

Comparing this game to such trash as CoD isn't fair nor reasonable in any way, shape or form. It's a knee jerk reaction to describe a gaming element that a particular player doesn't like. To be completely honest, anyone who claims this game is in any way similar to CoD is smoking the hyperbole. see what I did there?

CoD has laser weaponry with no recoil, spread, deviation or travel time. Kills are achieved in under half a second in the majority of encounters because TTK is so ludicrously low that engagements aren't a matter of skill but a matter of who fires first. Maps consist of corridors strung together in a leapfrog fashion, with tiny rooms or clearings interspersed between them. Explosive weaponry is an "i win" button. There is no dynamic movement, near ALL weapons are hitscan, innovation insofar as gameplay is akin to a box of nails and "skill" in those games, if you can even call it that, is boiled down to twitch reflex, camping and lone ranger gameplay tactics.

Comparing T:A with CoD/MW is so incredibly extremist that you may as well don a goofy name and threaten to blow up public places. The only similarity these two games share is that they put you behind the same gaming wheel: FPS. The art direction, weapon mechanics, physics, strategies, maps, target audience, platform, macro mechanics (ski/jetpack) are all so wildly different that you could move a freighter between them and have room to spare.

If you want to compare T:A with previous Tribes titles, fine. But don't be slanderous and akin it to the lowest common denominator in an attempt to sell your point of view. It's childish and moves far past the frontier of any sane argument or comparison.

_________________

http://www.youtube.com/user/hexentv1/videos

Wed May 23, 2012 12:59 am

FreaK367

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm
Posts: 587
Location: England
Steam Gamer Name: FreaK

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

If there was any nerf to the damage less than 25%, bullet resistance should be added. Like, Light: 0%, Medum: 10% Heavy: 20%, or something like that.

Any small nerfs, like what the Jackal just got, 4% (HOLY CRAP), would do very little to automatics, they could afford to lose atleast 10% damage and still be incredibly dominant, it wouldn't really phase them. I want the DPS brought down to between 500 - 600.

I can't tell if it's getting worse of if I'm just noticing more, but sometimes I see entire servers using automatics, I've been playing C&H more often because CTF is pretty much dead to me due to the automatics and other issues. But C&H is becoming or has become an automatic dominated gamemode

, everyone just runs around spraying eachother. People don't seem to think explosives are very reliable.

Even when I go on one of my epic never dying sprees showcasing explosives, then trying to get people interested in learning to use explosives, nobody listens

Didn't stop every one of them trying to duel and gang up on me, I felt like a teacher by the end.

Everyone should master explosives, for the greater good.

_________________

Desired:
Bind VGS commands to keys.
Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap)
Large Automatic Nerfs
Decent Plasma Gun Nerf
Large Jackal Nerf

Wed May 23, 2012 3:00 am

Cyanistic

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:16 pm
Posts: 3783
Steam Gamer Name: Cyanistic

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

Hey. Stop copying my characters.

Wed May 23, 2012 3:07 am

FreaK367

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm
Posts: 587
Location: England
Steam Gamer Name: FreaK

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

Cyanistic wrote:

Hey. Stop copying my characters.

Never!, also, that is possibly the best symbol ever, I have already spammed Facebook with it and several web based games with it, so funky.

Where did you find it? o_O, it seems like it has virtually no uses in normal conversation. Unless it is in a different language, I don't learn other languages :/

Edit: How the hell have you posted 2500+ times in only 3 months?

Edit: Edit: You joined on my Birthday.

_________________

Desired:
Bind VGS commands to keys.
Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap)
Large Automatic Nerfs
Decent Plasma Gun Nerf
Large Jackal Nerf

Wed May 23, 2012 3:12 am

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Automatic weapon balance?