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[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?
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-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4849 Location: NA East	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? well, if it's mortar is going to remain so impotent, he needs something to inflict fear like the old days. Heavies are a joke now. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:14 am

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? blackchimes wrote: Yeah, because that's what X1/Disk/Potential Energy Jugs need. Another f*** buff. This is not what's being discussed. If you want things to be buffed/nerfed then VGRD, but it's not very relevant to the principal behind this thread. Trying to keep this thread purely constructive discussion, please don't ruin it with short flaming comments. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:27 am

blackchimes Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:07 am Posts: 1108	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? What? The whole idea of this thread is to give Heavy classes a bullet damage resistance. How is that NOT a buff for Heavies? Or nerf to automatics?
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:31 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4849 Location: NA East	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? He's on topic. He just doesn't have good taste in dueling mechanics. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:42 am

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? More the way he wrote it than anything... Although I don't think I can really cater to the fact that every person and his dog has a different idea of which loadouts are OP ----------------------------- Back on topic... Does anyone else have any preferences to voice, or ideas to add to this thread? There are six options currently to choose from in the thread OP ^^ _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:17 pm

SkepticTA Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:41 pm Posts: 3062	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? blackchimes' post was full of vitriol and snide contempt for the general population that he perceives as idiots by comparison. So nothing out of the ordinary for this forum He's (sort of) right though, the end result can be looked at as either a buff to heavies or a nerf to automatics. There has to be some trade-off for making heavies more resilient to bullets, which is how I came to the armor mass idea. _________________ (AHK) T:A Physics Profiler
Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:01 pm

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? VGRD. Calling it a straight buff to Heavies is a bit inaccurate, since it only buffs them outdoors, where heavies are typically least effective in duels (except for chain-DMBs and LMG-JUGs, whose guns are affected by the change anyway), and even then it only does so against enemies wielding certain weapons. It does not buff heavies at all against outdoors explosive users (of which there are still a great number), nor does it buff them indoors where they are typically most effective. The same changes are applied to mediums too, to a lesser extent. Kind of the wrong way to think of it as straight buffs and debuffs, as the actual effect of the change is more a subtle slight rebalancing and really shouldn't make JUGs more of a hassle, since you can still pretty easily take them out with bullets even after this change. It doesn't limit your options like "Oh no a Heavy, guess I should run away since I have an SMG", no, it just makes it less of a cake-walk to melt the Heavy with that SMG. You can still kill him without too much hassle, just shoot him a few more times and he'll die just the same. There are still plenty of bullet weapons that can mostly or entirely ignore the mitigation effect - use a pistols, shotguns, sniper rifles and the Chain Gun would all still be effective against a harassing Heavy O. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:33 pm

UniversalPie Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:01 pm Posts: 619 Location: GTA Ontario	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? Its not really much of a buff. Its more of a balancing idea. The heavy that fails to get the drop on a sentinel might not get shredded as fast by the falcon if something like this were implemented. It would still probably happen though, since if it took like 2.5 seconds to destroy a heavy with the falcon, it would only take a second more at 70% damage. The explosion/mass damage ratio idea is also a great idea. Leaving mediums as the base explosion damage level, lowering and raising damage SLIGHTLY for the other classes, lets say 10%(?). If it were delicately tweaked to still take the same number of near-hit splashes to kill each class, I can't see it stirring up too much hate. _________________
Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:43 pm

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4849 Location: NA East	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? Auto's need a nerf. Heavies need a buff. I'm not saying it's not either one of those things. It's welcome. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:42 am

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? UniversalPie wrote: Its not really much of a buff. Its more of a balancing idea. The heavy that fails to get the drop on a sentinel might not get shredded as fast by the falcon if something like this were implemented. It would still probably happen though, since if it took like 2.5 seconds to destroy a heavy with the falcon, it would only take a second more at 70% damage. Exactly. Glad someone properly understands the effects of the change ^^ Doesn't invalidate autos vs heavies or anything silly like that, it just addresses the problem of them being such an illogically effective counter. UniversalPie wrote: The explosion/mass damage ratio idea is also a great idea. Leaving mediums as the base explosion damage level, lowering and raising damage SLIGHTLY for the other classes, lets say 10%(?). If it were delicately tweaked to still take the same number of near-hit splashes to kill each class, I can't see it stirring up too much hate. I do agree, I'd be happy if either Armour Penetration or SkepticTA's explosion/mass idea were implemented. Although the mass idea might necessitate a minor auto nerf in order to stop Lights from losing too much survivability. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:55 am

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[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

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-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4849
Location: NA East

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

well, if it's mortar is going to remain so impotent, he needs something to inflict fear like the old days.

Heavies are a joke now.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:14 am

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

blackchimes wrote:

Yeah, because that's what X1/Disk/Potential Energy Jugs need. Another f*** buff.

This is not what's being discussed. If you want things to be buffed/nerfed then VGRD, but it's not very relevant to the principal behind this thread.

Trying to keep this thread purely constructive discussion, please don't ruin it with short flaming comments.

_________________
This signature is green. I like the colour green.
Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green.
Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!

Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:27 am

blackchimes

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 1108

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

What?

The whole idea of this thread is to give Heavy classes a bullet damage resistance. How is that NOT a buff for Heavies? Or nerf to automatics?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:31 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4849
Location: NA East

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

He's on topic. He just doesn't have good taste in dueling mechanics.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:42 am

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

More the way he wrote it than anything...

Although I don't think I can really cater to the fact that every person and his dog has a different idea of which loadouts are OP

-----------------------------

Back on topic... Does anyone else have any preferences to voice, or ideas to add to this thread?
There are six options currently to choose from in the thread OP ^^

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:17 pm

SkepticTA

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 3062

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

blackchimes' post was full of vitriol and snide contempt for the general population that he perceives as idiots by comparison. So nothing out of the ordinary for this forum

He's (sort of) right though, the end result can be looked at as either a buff to heavies or a nerf to automatics. There has to be some trade-off for making heavies more resilient to bullets, which is how I came to the armor mass idea.

_________________

(AHK) T:A Physics Profiler

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:01 pm

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

VGRD. Calling it a straight buff to Heavies is a bit inaccurate, since it only buffs them outdoors, where heavies are typically least effective in duels (except for chain-DMBs and LMG-JUGs, whose guns are affected by the change anyway), and even then it only does so against enemies wielding certain weapons.

It does not buff heavies at all against outdoors explosive users (of which there are still a great number), nor does it buff them indoors where they are typically most effective.

The same changes are applied to mediums too, to a lesser extent.

Kind of the wrong way to think of it as straight buffs and debuffs, as the actual effect of the change is more a subtle slight rebalancing and really shouldn't make JUGs more of a hassle, since you can still pretty easily take them out with bullets even after this change.

It doesn't limit your options like "Oh no a Heavy, guess I should run away since I have an SMG", no, it just makes it less of a cake-walk to melt the Heavy with that SMG. You can still kill him without too much hassle, just shoot him a few more times and he'll die just the same.

There are still plenty of bullet weapons that can mostly or entirely ignore the mitigation effect - use a pistols, shotguns, sniper rifles and the Chain Gun would all still be effective against a harassing Heavy O.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:33 pm

UniversalPie

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 619
Location: GTA Ontario

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

Its not really much of a buff. Its more of a balancing idea.
The heavy that fails to get the drop on a sentinel might not get shredded as fast by the falcon if something like this were implemented. It would still probably happen though, since if it took like 2.5 seconds to destroy a heavy with the falcon, it would only take a second more at 70% damage.

The explosion/mass damage ratio idea is also a great idea. Leaving mediums as the base explosion damage level, lowering and raising damage SLIGHTLY for the other classes, lets say 10%(?). If it were delicately tweaked to still take the same number of near-hit splashes to kill each class, I can't see it stirring up too much hate.

_________________

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:43 pm

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4849
Location: NA East

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

Auto's need a nerf.
Heavies need a buff.

I'm not saying it's not either one of those things. It's welcome.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:42 am

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

UniversalPie wrote:

Exactly. Glad someone properly understands the effects of the change ^^
Doesn't invalidate autos vs heavies or anything silly like that, it just addresses the problem of them being such an illogically effective counter.

UniversalPie wrote:

The explosion/mass damage ratio idea is also a great idea. Leaving mediums as the base explosion damage level, lowering and raising damage SLIGHTLY for the other classes, lets say 10%(?). If it were delicately tweaked to still take the same number of near-hit splashes to kill each class, I can't see it stirring up too much hate.

I do agree, I'd be happy if either Armour Penetration or SkepticTA's explosion/mass idea were implemented. Although the mass idea might necessitate a minor auto nerf in order to stop Lights from losing too much survivability.

Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:55 am

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[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?