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[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?
Author	Message
UniversalPie Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:01 pm Posts: 619 Location: GTA Ontario	Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories? SkepticTA wrote: I think armor mass should be the key to balancing everything, including how we receive damage and knockback. Higher mass means more resistance to kinetic energy, thus taking less damage from bullet impacts but absorbing more impulse from explosions, resulting in more damage. So lights would take highest damage from bullets, but when hit by explosions they receive more knockback and less damage. Whereas heavies would take the least damage from bullets, but in explosions take more damage and less knockback. Mediums would obviously be in the middle. I like that... _________________
Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:28 pm

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? UniversalPie wrote: I think thats pretty close, but I'd make a small change; Code: Class:\| AP1: \| AP2: \| AP3: \| AP4: \| AP5: \| ------------------------------------------ Light \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| Medium\| 85% \| 90% \| 95% \| 100% \| 100% \| Heavy \| 70% \| 77.5%\| 85% \| 92.5%\| 100% \| Thanks, I'll take that into consideration. UniversalPie wrote: I like the OP idea. Plus a slight nerf for all bullet weapons to AT OR BELOW the average aoe dps. Eh, that's not really how it works. To reduce bullet DPS to AoE DPS would require a nerf of about 50%, which is needless to say way over the top. Bullet weapons rely on high DPS while AoE weapons rely on high burst damage, and although a minor reduction of auto DPS might help, this idea honestly was an attempt at a reasonable solution to Autos to make them balanced without having to nerf their base damage output significantly. More of a balance shift than a flat-out crude nerf. You don't need to nerf things much to balance them; little steps lead to balance. Big changes just lead to unpleasant sling-shotting back and forth around balance without ever actually achieving it. Edit: I've changed the thread title, as after reformatting my idea the old title didn't fit quite as well. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:36 pm

Fallwind Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:36 pm Posts: 740	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? I like this idea. I've always been more than a little irked that anything with an auto is nearly impossible for my heavy butt to beat, even the falcon. Auto's were sold as a way to finish off a fleeing target, not a "left mouse click, collect free ammo" weapon. I 100% support this change (And that's from someone who just dropped 100k xp on the LMG! I didn't really want to, but the only way to fight an auto is with a better auto) _________________ BOOMS FOR THE BOOM GOD! Play to win or I will.
Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:18 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4865 Location: NA East	Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories? SkepticTA wrote: I think armor mass should be the key to balancing everything, including how we receive damage and knockback. Higher mass means more resistance to kinetic energy, thus taking less damage from bullet impacts but absorbing more impulse from explosions, resulting in more damage. So lights would take highest damage from bullets, but when hit by explosions they receive more knockback and less damage. Whereas heavies would take the least damage from bullets, but in explosions take more damage and less knockback. Mediums would obviously be in the middle. I like that as well. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:41 am

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories? SkepticTA wrote: I think armor mass should be the key to balancing everything, including how we receive damage and knockback. Higher mass means more resistance to kinetic energy, thus taking less damage from bullet impacts but absorbing more impulse from explosions, resulting in more damage. So lights would take highest damage from bullets, but when hit by explosions they receive more knockback and less damage. Whereas heavies would take the least damage from bullets, but in explosions take more damage and less knockback. Mediums would obviously be in the middle. At first your idea seemed quite different, but on further thought it's actually surprisingly similar to what my idea achieves. Since my idea would make explosives a slightly better choice than they are now against mediums and heavies our ideas actually produce approximately the same net result. Fallwind wrote: I like this idea. I've always been more than a little irked that anything with an auto is nearly impossible for my heavy butt to beat, even the falcon. I 100% support this change (And that's from someone who just dropped 100k xp on the LMG! I didn't really want to, but the only way to fight an auto is with a better auto) I know what you mean, and thanks for the support ^^ _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:30 am

MrLordcaptain Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm Posts: 654	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? Code: Class:\| AP1: \| AP2: \| AP3: \| AP4: \| AP5: \| ------------------------------------------ Light \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| Medium\| 85% \| 90% \| 95% \| 100% \| 100% \| Heavy \| 70% \| 77.5%\| 85% \| 92.5%\| 100% \| ^ This But I would rather take it Code: Class:\| AP1: \| AP2: \| AP3: \| AP4: \| AP5: \| ------------------------------------------ Light \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| Medium\| 90% \| 92,5% \| 95% \| 97,5% \| 100% \| Heavy \| 70% \| 77.5%\| 85% \| 92.5%\| 100% \| Since I feel like the mobility difference between medium and heavy is bigger than between medium and light. _________________ Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns
Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:04 am

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? MrLordcaptain wrote: I would rather take it Code: Class:\| AP1: \| AP2: \| AP3: \| AP4: \| AP5: \| ------------------------------------------ Light \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| Medium\| 90% \| 92,5% \| 95% \| 97,5% \| 100% \| Heavy \| 70% \| 77.5%\| 85% \| 92.5%\| 100% \| Since I feel like the mobility difference between medium and heavy is bigger than between medium and light. Thanks for the feedback, check the OP as I've adapted your suggestion into option #3. [color=#FFFF50]And to all readers please give feedback on which # option you prefer. Also, you're right GeneralMrLordcaptainChiefSire, medium maneuverability is closer to that of the Light's than the Heavy's. Medium characteristics in general - their HP, run speed, energy regen, size and mass are all more similar to to that of Light classes than Heavy classes, and so this concept should treat them as such. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much! Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:51 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4865 Location: NA East	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? I think the details are inconsequential because the odds of HiRez incorporating any of these ideas directly as stated in the forums is slim to none. That's why I always post numbers, but express that I'm not married to them, and follow with things like "or similar ratio." I still support the idea in whatever iteration. Heavies need protection from my TCN4. They will soon be an endangered species. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:23 pm

VoltCruelerz Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:50 pm Posts: 721	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? I personally prefer the second options for both categories in the updated OP. _________________
Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:51 pm

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? -AEnubis- wrote: I think the details are inconsequential because the odds of HiRez incorporating any of these ideas directly as stated in the forums is slim to none. Mm, I know. I just think discussing the balancing is healthy for the idea even if I wouldn't get a say in anything HiRez might (by some miracle) take from the idea. VoltCruelerz wrote: I personally prefer the second options for both categories in the updated OP. Thanks for the feedback ^^ _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:42 pm

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[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

Author

Message

UniversalPie

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 619
Location: GTA Ontario

Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?

SkepticTA wrote:

I think armor mass should be the key to balancing everything, including how we receive damage and knockback. Higher mass means more resistance to kinetic energy, thus taking less damage from bullet impacts but absorbing more impulse from explosions, resulting in more damage. So lights would take highest damage from bullets, but when hit by explosions they receive more knockback and less damage. Whereas heavies would take the least damage from bullets, but in explosions take more damage and less knockback. Mediums would obviously be in the middle.

I like that...

_________________

Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:28 pm

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

UniversalPie wrote:

I think thats pretty close, but I'd make a small change;

Code:

Class:| AP1: | AP2: | AP3: | AP4: | AP5: |
------------------------------------------
Light | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
Medium| 85%  | 90%  | 95% | 100% | 100% |
Heavy | 70%  | 77.5%| 85%  | 92.5%| 100% |

Thanks, I'll take that into consideration.

UniversalPie wrote:

I like the OP idea. Plus a slight nerf for all bullet weapons to AT OR BELOW the average aoe dps.

Eh, that's not really how it works. To reduce bullet DPS to AoE DPS would require a nerf of about 50%, which is needless to say way over the top.

Bullet weapons rely on high DPS while AoE weapons rely on high burst damage, and although a minor reduction of auto DPS might help, this idea honestly was an attempt at a reasonable solution to Autos to make them balanced without having to nerf their base damage output significantly.

More of a balance shift than a flat-out crude nerf.

You don't need to nerf things much to balance them; little steps lead to balance. Big changes just lead to unpleasant sling-shotting back and forth around balance without ever actually achieving it.

Edit: I've changed the thread title, as after reformatting my idea the old title didn't fit quite as well.

_________________
This signature is green. I like the colour green.
Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green.
Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!

Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:36 pm

Fallwind

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:36 pm
Posts: 740

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

I like this idea. I've always been more than a little irked that anything with an auto is nearly impossible for my heavy butt to beat, even the falcon.

Auto's were sold as a way to finish off a fleeing target, not a "left mouse click, collect free ammo" weapon. I 100% support this change (And that's from someone who just dropped 100k xp on the LMG! I didn't really want to, but the only way to fight an auto is with a better auto)

_________________
BOOMS FOR THE BOOM GOD!

Play to win or I will.

Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:18 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4865
Location: NA East

Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?

SkepticTA wrote:

I like that as well.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:41 am

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?

SkepticTA wrote:

At first your idea seemed quite different, but on further thought it's actually surprisingly similar to what my idea achieves.

Since my idea would make explosives a slightly better choice than they are now against mediums and heavies our ideas actually produce approximately the same net result.

Fallwind wrote:

I like this idea. I've always been more than a little irked that anything with an auto is nearly impossible for my heavy butt to beat, even the falcon.

I 100% support this change (And that's from someone who just dropped 100k xp on the LMG! I didn't really want to, but the only way to fight an auto is with a better auto)

I know what you mean, and thanks for the support ^^

Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:30 am

MrLordcaptain

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm
Posts: 654

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

Code:

Class:| AP1: | AP2: | AP3: | AP4: | AP5: |
------------------------------------------
Light | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
Medium| 85%  | 90%  | 95% | 100% | 100% |
Heavy | 70%  | 77.5%| 85%  | 92.5%| 100% |

^ This

But I would rather take it

Code:

Class:| AP1: | AP2: | AP3: | AP4: | AP5: |
------------------------------------------
Light | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
Medium| 90% | 92,5% | 95% | 97,5% | 100% |
Heavy | 70%  | 77.5%| 85%  | 92.5%| 100% |

Since I feel like the mobility difference between medium and heavy is bigger than between medium and light.

_________________
Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns

Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:04 am

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

MrLordcaptain wrote:

I would rather take it

Code:

Class:| AP1: | AP2: | AP3: | AP4: | AP5: |
------------------------------------------
Light | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
Medium| 90% | 92,5% | 95% | 97,5% | 100% |
Heavy | 70%  | 77.5%| 85%  | 92.5%| 100% |

Since I feel like the mobility difference between medium and heavy is bigger than between medium and light.

Thanks for the feedback, check the OP as I've adapted your suggestion into option #3.
[color=#FFFF50]And to all readers please give feedback on which # option you prefer.

Also, you're right GeneralMrLordcaptainChiefSire, medium maneuverability is closer to that of the Light's than the Heavy's. Medium characteristics in general - their HP, run speed, energy regen, size and mass are all more similar to to that of Light classes than Heavy classes, and so this concept should treat them as such.

Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:51 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4865
Location: NA East

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

I think the details are inconsequential because the odds of HiRez incorporating any of these ideas directly as stated in the forums is slim to none. That's why I always post numbers, but express that I'm not married to them, and follow with things like "or similar ratio."

I still support the idea in whatever iteration. Heavies need protection from my TCN4. They will soon be an endangered species.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:23 pm

VoltCruelerz

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:50 pm
Posts: 721

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

I personally prefer the second options for both categories in the updated OP.

_________________

Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:51 pm

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

-AEnubis- wrote:

I think the details are inconsequential because the odds of HiRez incorporating any of these ideas directly as stated in the forums is slim to none.

Mm, I know.
I just think discussing the balancing is healthy for the idea even if I wouldn't get a say in anything HiRez might (by some miracle) take from the idea.

VoltCruelerz wrote:

I personally prefer the second options for both categories in the updated OP.

Thanks for the feedback ^^

Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:42 pm

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[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?