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CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!
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AustinNH Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am Posts: 83	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! zarious1 wrote: (Great game by the way, it's up on twitch tv, Guitar Guy casted it) Can you give a direct link? _________________ 100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?
Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:36 pm

PessimiStick Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:25 am Posts: 679	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! AustinNH wrote: PessimiStick wrote: So forcing the HoF to take 2 steps to the side is going to let you cap... how, exactly? It's clear that you either haven't watched many games, or weren't actually understanding what you were watching. I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. Obviously that's not all you need to cap. I didn't say it was. You certainly still have to deal with sniper and shrike defense, both of which I think are somewhat broken. Maybe that's what you were getting at? Depending on the map a nitron spamming PTH defense too. What's your point? My point is that if your capper breaks off his route to spam the flag, then even if he clears it through some feat of magic, there's no one to actually cap off the clear. Aka it was a waste of time. _________________ Dear Llamas: Don't touch my flag. Thanks.
Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:43 pm

hvcterr Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am Posts: 1567	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! From a class-utility perspective, it doesn't matter much, since the Pathfinder class can fill both the role of stand-spammer and flag-grabber. _________________ Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.
Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:55 pm

zarious1 Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:09 am Posts: 64	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! AustinNH wrote: zarious1 wrote: (Great game by the way, it's up on twitch tv, Guitar Guy casted it) Can you give a direct link? http://www.twitch.tv/apcizzle/b/315096122 Game starts about 17:00 in. And I was wrong it's APC and Buhlitz casting. _________________
Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:52 pm

lamebot Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:32 pm Posts: 215	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! -1
Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:15 pm

pro-logic Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:01 pm Posts: 437	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! AustinNH wrote: Yetskii wrote: People tend to forget that while t2 did not have strikes, it had bombers.. Yes OMG that's the point. Bombers required a half-decent pilot, and bombardier (admittedly an easy job) and a tailgunner with missles, chaingun, flares, ammo pack, and skill. What ensued was a challenging and entertaining offensive strategy that could be countered by coordinated and interesting defense. It was fun to do, and fun to watch. Hell, even being bombed was fun, at least you know that your opponents had to have a modicum of skill and coordination to get past your shrikes and AA turrets and keep that bomber alive over your base for more than 10 seconds. And then you could start thinking about what to do about the constant raining death in the sky. Get a couple missile launchers out to make the tailgunner run out of flares. Now repair your vehicle station (yes they could be destroyed) and get some good shrike pilots in the air. Repair or put up AA turrets (which had shields so they couldn't be killed by a capper spamming discs.) Etc etc. This was fun to play, and fun to watch. Strikes are just: point at flag stand, stuff blows up. There's no commitment from any team member (except for credits). The capper can just do it. It takes no coordination or skiil or decision making. Worst of all, there's no defensive counter to it. You just have to wait for it to end, then get back to your flag unless it was already taken, in which case all you can do is hope someone is at the enemy base for a e-grab. A running joke on the forums is that HiRez have not introduced a bomber because it requires 3-4 people to work in a team to achieve a goal. I completely agree with that sentiment. This game has way to many 'features' that let one player 'win' an encounter with 4+ other players. Bombers were great, you'd get 3 people, and maybe a shrike escort if you were serious. That would remove 4 people from the 'field' but the amount of damage these 4 could deal was MASSIVE! Here, some guy points a laser pointer at the base, and deals as much damage as 4 people could in the previous game... yay how "skilful" It's a similar deal with the pathfinders. I used to play pathfinder all the time, but now I try to do pathfinder defence... it's surprising easy at TCN as long as the sensors are up. See pathfinder coming it. Throw grenade. Grenade blows up in Pathfinders face. Dead pathfinder. The issue with this strategy is however, I don't carry 8 grenades for the chain grabbing fest the flag becomes.
Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:18 pm

AustinNH Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am Posts: 83	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! PessimiStick wrote: My point is that if your capper breaks off his route to spam the flag, then even if he clears it through some feat of magic, there's no one to actually cap off the clear. Aka it was a waste of time. Oh, well my point is that you can run multiple cappers, because using the PTH class gives up little in flag stand harass. Plus it gives much more effective e-grabbing, which is the best defense, and it will be much harder to cut off routes when there are multiple approaching. _________________ 100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?
Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:30 pm

sleepytime Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:36 pm Posts: 21	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! here is a flag stand layout that I think will work pretty well. Being surrounded by walls means that me and my friends can just sit in there playing tech and brute and have FUN we wont have to worry about those try-hard-fun-killing pathfinders ruining our game. remander t1 boys? this is the kinda 1337 s*** im talkin' bout! oorah! _________________ ~~THANKS FOR READING MY POSTS AND GOD BLESS~~ check out my tumbler dot com website http://enjoyaberry.tumblr.com/
Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:03 pm

Aerograt Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:07 am Posts: 12	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! Speed cap crap is why I just play Capture and Hold now, honestly. Base maps for Ctf would be possible if flag returns weren't instant like they are now, but had to be done over a few seconds kinda like in tf2
Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:32 am

securitysix Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:04 am Posts: 89	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! I'm too lazy to read the whole thread right now, but as someone who plays both offense and defense, here is what I have learned: 1) I suck at playing a Pathfinder. Unopposed or against a single HoF and no other defenders, I can boom and zoom just fine. Anything more than that and I'll die. Why? Pathfinders are fast, but fragile and I play too direct and aggressive for that (also why I don't play INF). 2) A raider or a jugg can clear the flag for the pathfinder just fine. Unfortunately, I've been in too many games where a raider or a jugg or both have cleared the flag and NOBODY comes for it even after 2 or 3 minutes, to the point where the flag clearer says "Screw it", llama grabs it, and goes home. Where are the 3 or 4 Pathfinders that I KNOW are on the team then? Oh, right, they're out TDMing in the midfield so they can get enough credits to tac/orb strike so they can Buzz Lightyear solo cap. 3) On every map we have right now, there are at least 2 axes from which the flag can be grabbed (Sunstar requires the gen to be down for the 2nd). For each axis of approach, there are 2 directions you can come from (front/back, left/right). At most, the HoF can reliably watch 2 of the at least 4 available directions, so it takes at least 2 defenders to watch for incoming cappers. That's 2 people guarding against 1. In the entire history of human warfare, the defenders have always had the advantage, but that has never been true in Tribes. The best you can hope for is that 1v1 is an even match. 4) Pathfinders aren't hard to stop when they come in for the cap if you know where they're coming from. I play HoF as a Brute with Super Heavy and the Shield Pack (unconventional, I know, but it works). When I see a capper coming in (usually PTH, but I've seen pretty much every class except TCN and DMB try), I turn on the shield pack and watch them. They have 3 options: They can try to shoot a disc or bolt and move me, which is hard with Super Heavy, they can bounce off my head and pick up the flag with their feet and the reach perk, or they can tac strike me on the way in. If they try to move me, they will fail, I will disc their feet and mine and almost always kill them, either from the disc or them hitting my super heaviness. If they try to goomba grab, I jet up a little and let them run into me, which almost always kills them. If the tac strike, the best I can do is disco grenade the flag and try to get out of the way. 5) Strikes, both tactical and orbital, are unbalanced. There is no reason that anyone should be able to put their cursor on the flag stand, hold down their mouse button for a couple of seconds, and wipe out an entire defense, especially since this can be done from anywhere on the map. There is also no reason that their teammates should be able to ski right through that lethal bombardment completely unscathed. There should be a counter to everything in the game, but there is no counter to the strikes. They are an I Win button. No matter how solid and meticulous your defense is, a strike will wipe it out, and there's nothing you can do about it. There should be a counter to everything in Tribes, and with the exception of strikes, there is. In summary: Pathfinders are fine, strikes have no place in Tribes. Remove strikes from the game and learn to play with your team _________________ ShotgunWillie, formerly of \|R\|Ronin circa T1 and T2 Live with honor, destroy without mercy, die without ammo.
Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:23 am

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CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

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AustinNH

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am
Posts: 83

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

zarious1 wrote:

(Great game by the way, it's up on twitch tv, Guitar Guy casted it)

Can you give a direct link?

_________________
100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:36 pm

PessimiStick

Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 679

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

AustinNH wrote:

PessimiStick wrote:

So forcing the HoF to take 2 steps to the side is going to let you cap... how, exactly?

It's clear that you either haven't watched many games, or weren't actually understanding what you were watching.

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. Obviously that's not all you need to cap. I didn't say it was. You certainly still have to deal with sniper and shrike defense, both of which I think are somewhat broken. Maybe that's what you were getting at? Depending on the map a nitron spamming PTH defense too.

What's your point?

My point is that if your capper breaks off his route to spam the flag, then even if he clears it through some feat of magic, there's no one to actually cap off the clear. Aka it was a waste of time.

_________________

Dear Llamas: Don't touch my flag. Thanks.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:43 pm

hvcterr

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am
Posts: 1567

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

From a class-utility perspective, it doesn't matter much, since the Pathfinder class can fill both the role of stand-spammer and flag-grabber.

_________________
Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:55 pm

zarious1

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:09 am
Posts: 64

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

AustinNH wrote:

zarious1 wrote:

(Great game by the way, it's up on twitch tv, Guitar Guy casted it)

Can you give a direct link?

http://www.twitch.tv/apcizzle/b/315096122

Game starts about 17:00 in. And I was wrong it's APC and Buhlitz casting.

_________________

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:52 pm

lamebot

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:32 pm
Posts: 215

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

-1

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:15 pm

pro-logic

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:01 pm
Posts: 437

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

AustinNH wrote:

Yetskii wrote:

People tend to forget that while t2 did not have strikes, it had bombers..

Yes OMG that's the point. Bombers required a half-decent pilot, and bombardier (admittedly an easy job) and a tailgunner with missles, chaingun, flares, ammo pack, and skill. What ensued was a challenging and entertaining offensive strategy that could be countered by coordinated and interesting defense. It was fun to do, and fun to watch. Hell, even being bombed was fun, at least you know that your opponents had to have a modicum of skill and coordination to get past your shrikes and AA turrets and keep that bomber alive over your base for more than 10 seconds. And then you could start thinking about what to do about the constant raining death in the sky. Get a couple missile launchers out to make the tailgunner run out of flares. Now repair your vehicle station (yes they could be destroyed) and get some good shrike pilots in the air. Repair or put up AA turrets (which had shields so they couldn't be killed by a capper spamming discs.) Etc etc. This was fun to play, and fun to watch.

Strikes are just: point at flag stand, stuff blows up. There's no commitment from any team member (except for credits). The capper can just do it. It takes no coordination or skiil or decision making. Worst of all, there's no defensive counter to it. You just have to wait for it to end, then get back to your flag unless it was already taken, in which case all you can do is hope someone is at the enemy base for a e-grab.

A running joke on the forums is that HiRez have not introduced a bomber because it requires 3-4 people to work in a team to achieve a goal. I completely agree with that sentiment. This game has way to many 'features' that let one player 'win' an encounter with 4+ other players.

Bombers were great, you'd get 3 people, and maybe a shrike escort if you were serious. That would remove 4 people from the 'field' but the amount of damage these 4 could deal was MASSIVE! Here, some guy points a laser pointer at the base, and deals as much damage as 4 people could in the previous game... *yay* how "skilful"

It's a similar deal with the pathfinders. I used to play pathfinder all the time, but now I try to do pathfinder defence... it's surprising easy at TCN as long as the sensors are up. See pathfinder coming it. Throw grenade. Grenade blows up in Pathfinders face. Dead pathfinder.
The issue with this strategy is however, I don't carry 8 grenades for the chain grabbing fest the flag becomes.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:18 pm

AustinNH

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am
Posts: 83

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

PessimiStick wrote:

My point is that if your capper breaks off his route to spam the flag, then even if he clears it through some feat of magic, there's no one to actually cap off the clear. Aka it was a waste of time.

Oh, well my point is that you can run multiple cappers, because using the PTH class gives up little in flag stand harass. Plus it gives much more effective e-grabbing, which is the best defense, and it will be much harder to cut off routes when there are multiple approaching.

_________________
100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:30 pm

sleepytime

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:36 pm
Posts: 21

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

here is a flag stand layout that I think will work pretty well.

Being surrounded by walls means that me and my friends can just sit in there playing tech and brute and have FUN

we wont have to worry about those try-hard-fun-killing pathfinders ruining our game. remander t1 boys? this is the kinda 1337 s*** im talkin' bout! oorah!

_________________
~~THANKS FOR READING MY POSTS AND GOD BLESS~~

check out my tumbler dot com website http://enjoyaberry.tumblr.com/

Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:03 pm

Aerograt

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:07 am
Posts: 12

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

Speed cap crap is why I just play Capture and Hold now, honestly. Base maps for Ctf would be possible if flag returns weren't instant like they are now, but had to be done over a few seconds kinda like in tf2

Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:32 am

securitysix

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 89

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

I'm too lazy to read the whole thread right now, but as someone who plays both offense and defense, here is what I have learned:

1) I suck at playing a Pathfinder. Unopposed or against a single HoF and no other defenders, I can boom and zoom just fine. Anything more than that and I'll die. Why? Pathfinders are fast, but fragile and I play too direct and aggressive for that (also why I don't play INF).

2) A raider or a jugg can clear the flag for the pathfinder just fine. Unfortunately, I've been in too many games where a raider or a jugg or both have cleared the flag and NOBODY comes for it even after 2 or 3 minutes, to the point where the flag clearer says "Screw it", llama grabs it, and goes home. Where are the 3 or 4 Pathfinders that I KNOW are on the team then? Oh, right, they're out TDMing in the midfield so they can get enough credits to tac/orb strike so they can Buzz Lightyear solo cap.

3) On every map we have right now, there are at least 2 axes from which the flag can be grabbed (Sunstar requires the gen to be down for the 2nd). For each axis of approach, there are 2 directions you can come from (front/back, left/right). At most, the HoF can reliably watch 2 of the at least 4 available directions, so it takes at least 2 defenders to watch for incoming cappers. That's 2 people guarding against 1. In the entire history of human warfare, the defenders have always had the advantage, but that has never been true in Tribes. The best you can hope for is that 1v1 is an even match.

4) Pathfinders aren't hard to stop when they come in for the cap if you know where they're coming from. I play HoF as a Brute with Super Heavy and the Shield Pack (unconventional, I know, but it works). When I see a capper coming in (usually PTH, but I've seen pretty much every class except TCN and DMB try), I turn on the shield pack and watch them.

They have 3 options: They can try to shoot a disc or bolt and move me, which is hard with Super Heavy, they can bounce off my head and pick up the flag with their feet and the reach perk, or they can tac strike me on the way in. If they try to move me, they will fail, I will disc their feet and mine and almost always kill them, either from the disc or them hitting my super heaviness. If they try to goomba grab, I jet up a little and let them run into me, which almost always kills them. If the tac strike, the best I can do is disco grenade the flag and try to get out of the way.

5) Strikes, both tactical and orbital, are unbalanced. There is no reason that anyone should be able to put their cursor on the flag stand, hold down their mouse button for a couple of seconds, and wipe out an entire defense, especially since this can be done from anywhere on the map. There is also no reason that their teammates should be able to ski right through that lethal bombardment completely unscathed.

There should be a counter to everything in the game, but there is no counter to the strikes. They are an I Win button. No matter how solid and meticulous your defense is, a strike will wipe it out, and there's nothing you can do about it. There should be a counter to everything in Tribes, and with the exception of strikes, there is.

In summary: Pathfinders are fine, strikes have no place in Tribes. Remove strikes from the game and learn to play with your team

_________________
ShotgunWillie, formerly of |R|Ronin circa T1 and T2

Live with honor, destroy without mercy, die without ammo.

Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:23 am

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CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!