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CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!
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TaoRedeye Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:23 pm Posts: 350	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! pro-logic wrote: I've seen pathfinders call in an orbital strike while on their route, and fly through the orbital explosions to claim the flag.... effectively countering most of the defenders and deployables around the flag stand. Thats not a Pathfinder issue. =)
Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:21 pm

Diknak Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:28 pm Posts: 553	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! TaoRedeye wrote: pro-logic wrote: I've seen pathfinders call in an orbital strike while on their route, and fly through the orbital explosions to claim the flag.... effectively countering most of the defenders and deployables around the flag stand. Thats not a Pathfinder issue. =) Yeah, the fact that a tac/orb strike can clear an entire defense in 3 seconds is really what kills the quick play games for me. There is no way to defend against something like that and it is the cheapest strategy out there. IMO, they should be removed from the game, but since HR just LOVES those stupid things, at least make deployables immune to them. _________________ do \|\| !do; try; #Error: Command try not found.
Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:36 pm

zarious1 Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:09 am Posts: 64	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! I'm sure someone else has brought this up, but what you are describing is poor defense, and over powered strikes, not poor map design. Take drydock for instance. The flag is wide open. But a good defense can shut down even the best, most coordinated offense. Think about what all must happen to move the flag against a good D. You have to simultaneously distract the sniper (not kill him, if you kill him you do him a favor) distract/kill the nitron spamming LD Distract/kill the HOF Blow up all the turrets, mines and shields Dodge the tank spam on the flag (if they have one) Don't get ran over by the shrike Yes strikes can negate a few of these, but strikes are broken anyway and should be removed.(seems like we agree here) Really this sounds like pub problems. In the scrims and PU's I've played in, uncoordinated offenses get their asses handed to them. Even top tier cappers running 400 + routes die on the stand without proper clear. And speaking of drydock, I can give you some first hand experience I had in the draft tourney. My team (Remics was the captain) won in the first round on arx, then played Ziro's team on Dry Dock. Their defense consisted of 1 HOF, 1 Sniper, 1 Stay at home/occasional tech, and 1 Chase/mid. Our offense was 1 Cap (Gmcizzle from Tribe Hard) 1 Lo, 1 HO spammer, and one LO/Cap swing (Me). Their defense shut us down for the most part. The final score was 3-5, but we only managed to move the flag past midfield maybe 8 times in 20 mins. They averaged about the same number past mid, they just played their scramble game better than we did and won because of it. (Great game by the way, it's up on twitch tv, Guitar Guy casted it) Anyway the point is, if you think the game is too offensively oriented, you should play in less pubs. In organized games, even competent players have a hard time moving the flag. _________________
Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:01 pm

SFJake Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:11 pm Posts: 381	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! I'd easily say that the big majority of the players will only ever play on pubs (definition of pubs here is anything that isn't in custom servers I'm afraid) and if nothing here happens to make the games better, then it will suffer in the long run. I know fixing everything only in the "custom servers" is a tempting prospect but its not helping more than half of the community. _________________ http://sfjake.zxq.net
Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:04 pm

hvcterr Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am Posts: 1567	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! SFJake wrote: I'd easily say that the big majority of the players will only ever play on pubs (definition of pubs here is anything that isn't in custom servers I'm afraid) and if nothing here happens to make the games better, then it will suffer in the long run. True, but if T:A follows the pattern many other games have taken, a lot of "Custom Servers" will effectively be pubs, just pubs where some server-admin power is held by someone other than HiRez. _________________ Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.
Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:31 pm

AustinNH Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am Posts: 83	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! TaoRedeye wrote: http://www.tribescast.com Tons of VoDs. Some good teams, some OK teams. You will see many cappers getting stopped. Ah. I stopped watching this thread but now that you've responded... Yes I've already watched many of those. Probably most of them. What I regularly see is cappers trying to headbutt DMBs off the flag. When it doesn't work, they try to headbutt them harder. That is not evidence that defense works. That is evidence that some cappers are stupid. If one of those PTHs would just stop and spam discs at the stand, they could quickly destroy all deployables and and either kill the HoF or force him off the stand. Doesn't require any strategy or team coordination. Boring to play but also boring to watch. _________________ 100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?
Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:31 pm

AustinNH Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am Posts: 83	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! kjbaraja wrote: I have a long history of competitive play in Tribes2, and while I haven't played competitively in Ascend yet, I've watched almost every VoD since they starting being produced. That said, here is my take the current strategy we see in every single game. The strategy is to clear the flag stand for a capper that is on his 250-300 kph route. If he gets away, maybe a sniper will hit him, or maybe a light will be nicely positioned to get some chain fire/nitron on him. Most often, the capper is gone and the other team needs to get in there for an e-grab. Then send a solo PTH to nitron or a small team to kill the flag-holder, while trying to protect your own flag-holder. There we go. That's it. Every time. Now there's obviously some unique ways to go about executing the above gameplan, but I can't be the only one that sees a clear lack of creativity in these games. When I watch VoDs I feel like I'm watching the same game every time, the only difference being that the players have different skill levels. I miss the cool strategies in Tribes 2. Remember when we'd see a shrike escort a bomber and transport while a team tried to execute a full frontal assault, and the whole time you had a guy with an invis pack waiting to grab the flag and jump in his grav cycle? That was cool. Now I'm not suggesting that Tribes: Ascend include bombers and transports and try to mimic T2. This is a different game, I get it. And I like this new game. But there is a distinct lack of fun strategies to execute. There are way too many reasons responsible to list off here. But the result is clear: the game is pretty repetitive. You got the same old cappers doing the same old routes, and the other team doing the same old thing to get the flag back. I can't be the only one getting bored by this? And when you see a team use 3-5 PTHS on their 8-person team, and the same old strategy I described above, you have to wonder what's going on, no? This sums up my feelings as well. I love this game. Better than T2 in many ways. But from the standpoint of playing in pubs and watching competitive, I wish we saw more variety/strategy winning games. _________________ 100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?
Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:40 pm

hvcterr Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am Posts: 1567	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! I wish I had access to some of HiRez's statistical data here... I wonder if you could set up some parameters to get an idea how often flags are returned primarily due to a "take theirs before they can cap it" strategy. _________________ Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.
Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:49 pm

IronKane Beta Tester Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm Posts: 497	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! kjbaraja wrote: I have a long history of competitive play in Tribes2, and while I haven't played competitively in Ascend yet, I've watched almost every VoD since they starting being produced. That said, here is my take the current strategy we see in every single game. The strategy is to clear the flag stand for a capper that is on his 250-300 kph route. If he gets away, maybe a sniper will hit him, or maybe a light will be nicely positioned to get some chain fire/nitron on him. Most often, the capper is gone and the other team needs to get in there for an e-grab. Then send a solo PTH to nitron or a small team to kill the flag-holder, while trying to protect your own flag-holder. There we go. That's it. Every time. Now there's obviously some unique ways to go about executing the above gameplan, but I can't be the only one that sees a clear lack of creativity in these games. When I watch VoDs I feel like I'm watching the same game every time, the only difference being that the players have different skill levels. I miss the cool strategies in Tribes 2. Remember when we'd see a shrike escort a bomber and transport while a team tried to execute a full frontal assault, and the whole time you had a guy with an invis pack waiting to grab the flag and jump in his grav cycle? That was cool. Now I'm not suggesting that Tribes: Ascend include bombers and transports and try to mimic T2. This is a different game, I get it. And I like this new game. But there is a distinct lack of fun strategies to execute. There are way too many reasons responsible to list off here. But the result is clear: the game is pretty repetitive. You got the same old cappers doing the same old routes, and the other team doing the same old thing to get the flag back. I can't be the only one getting bored by this? And when you see a team use 3-5 PTHS on their 8-person team, and the same old strategy I described above, you have to wonder what's going on, no? Good to hear from a fellow Tribes veteran. You're spot on. Now to p*** off some of the Pathfinders: OMG, so much arrogance! It makes me wonder how many PTH are T2 vets? I suspect it's low. I find it to be too easy of a class. All speed and no skill. And they all seem to want to turn this into some kind of racing game as well as dictate who will be allowed to grab the flag, what your minimum speed shall be and other facist statements. In T2, 95% of the players were either lights or heavies. The light being the equivalent of the T:A Soldier. Mediums were played by those who wanted a challenge. And a lot of T2 maps had indoor flags. Scarabrae, a very popular map, was one. and required teamwork to win. T:A needs to have some maps like that and quit catering to the prima donna PTH's. /me sits back and waits for the reactions
Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:58 pm

Yetskii Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:34 am Posts: 754	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! People tend to forget that while t2 did not have strikes, it had bombers..
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:05 pm

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CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

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TaoRedeye

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:23 pm
Posts: 350

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

pro-logic wrote:

I've seen pathfinders call in an orbital strike while on their route, and fly through the orbital explosions to claim the flag.... effectively countering most of the defenders and deployables around the flag stand.

Thats not a Pathfinder issue. =)

Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:21 pm

Diknak

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:28 pm
Posts: 553

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

TaoRedeye wrote:

pro-logic wrote:

Thats not a Pathfinder issue. =)

Yeah, the fact that a tac/orb strike can clear an entire defense in 3 seconds is really what kills the quick play games for me. There is no way to defend against something like that and it is the cheapest strategy out there.

IMO, they should be removed from the game, but since HR just LOVES those stupid things, at least make deployables immune to them.

_________________
do || !do;
try;
#Error: Command try not found.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:36 pm

zarious1

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:09 am
Posts: 64

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

I'm sure someone else has brought this up, but what you are describing is poor defense, and over powered strikes, not poor map design.

Take drydock for instance. The flag is wide open. But a good defense can shut down even the best, most coordinated offense.

Think about what all must happen to move the flag against a good D. You have to simultaneously

distract the sniper (not kill him, if you kill him you do him a favor)
distract/kill the nitron spamming LD
Distract/kill the HOF
Blow up all the turrets, mines and shields
Dodge the tank spam on the flag (if they have one)
Don't get ran over by the shrike

Yes strikes can negate a few of these, but strikes are broken anyway and should be removed.(seems like we agree here)

Really this sounds like pub problems. In the scrims and PU's I've played in, uncoordinated offenses get their asses handed to them. Even top tier cappers running 400 + routes die on the stand without proper clear.

And speaking of drydock, I can give you some first hand experience I had in the draft tourney. My team (Remics was the captain) won in the first round on arx, then played Ziro's team on Dry Dock. Their defense consisted of 1 HOF, 1 Sniper, 1 Stay at home/occasional tech, and 1 Chase/mid. Our offense was 1 Cap (Gmcizzle from Tribe Hard) 1 Lo, 1 HO spammer, and one LO/Cap swing (Me). Their defense shut us down for the most part. The final score was 3-5, but we only managed to move the flag past midfield maybe 8 times in 20 mins. They averaged about the same number past mid, they just played their scramble game better than we did and won because of it. (Great game by the way, it's up on twitch tv, Guitar Guy casted it)

Anyway the point is, if you think the game is too offensively oriented, you should play in less pubs. In organized games, even competent players have a hard time moving the flag.

_________________

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:01 pm

SFJake

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:11 pm
Posts: 381

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

I'd easily say that the big majority of the players will only ever play on pubs (definition of pubs here is anything that isn't in custom servers I'm afraid) and if nothing here happens to make the games better, then it will suffer in the long run.

I know fixing everything only in the "custom servers" is a tempting prospect but its not helping more than half of the community.

_________________
http://sfjake.zxq.net

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:04 pm

hvcterr

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am
Posts: 1567

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

SFJake wrote:

True, but if T:A follows the pattern many other games have taken, a lot of "Custom Servers" will effectively be pubs, just pubs where some server-admin power is held by someone other than HiRez.

_________________
Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:31 pm

AustinNH

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am
Posts: 83

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

TaoRedeye wrote:

http://www.tribescast.com

Tons of VoDs. Some good teams, some OK teams. You will see many cappers getting stopped.

Ah. I stopped watching this thread but now that you've responded... Yes I've already watched many of those. Probably most of them. What I regularly see is cappers trying to headbutt DMBs off the flag. When it doesn't work, they try to headbutt them harder. That is not evidence that defense works. That is evidence that some cappers are stupid.

If one of those PTHs would just stop and spam discs at the stand, they could quickly destroy all deployables and and either kill the HoF or force him off the stand. Doesn't require any strategy or team coordination. Boring to play but also boring to watch.

_________________
100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:31 pm

AustinNH

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am
Posts: 83

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

kjbaraja wrote:

I have a long history of competitive play in Tribes2, and while I haven't played competitively in Ascend yet, I've watched almost every VoD since they starting being produced. That said, here is my take the current strategy we see in every single game.

The strategy is to clear the flag stand for a capper that is on his 250-300 kph route. If he gets away, maybe a sniper will hit him, or maybe a light will be nicely positioned to get some chain fire/nitron on him. Most often, the capper is gone and the other team needs to get in there for an e-grab. Then send a solo PTH to nitron or a small team to kill the flag-holder, while trying to protect your own flag-holder. There we go. That's it. Every time.

Now there's obviously some unique ways to go about executing the above gameplan, but I can't be the only one that sees a clear lack of creativity in these games. When I watch VoDs I feel like I'm watching the same game every time, the only difference being that the players have different skill levels.

I miss the cool strategies in Tribes 2. Remember when we'd see a shrike escort a bomber and transport while a team tried to execute a full frontal assault, and the whole time you had a guy with an invis pack waiting to grab the flag and jump in his grav cycle? That was cool. Now I'm not suggesting that Tribes: Ascend include bombers and transports and try to mimic T2. This is a different game, I get it. And I like this new game.

But there is a distinct lack of fun strategies to execute. There are way too many reasons responsible to list off here. But the result is clear: the game is pretty repetitive. You got the same old cappers doing the same old routes, and the other team doing the same old thing to get the flag back. I can't be the only one getting bored by this?

And when you see a team use 3-5 PTHS on their 8-person team, and the same old strategy I described above, you have to wonder what's going on, no?

This sums up my feelings as well. I love this game. Better than T2 in many ways. But from the standpoint of playing in pubs and watching competitive, I wish we saw more variety/strategy winning games.

_________________
100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:40 pm

hvcterr

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am
Posts: 1567

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

I wish I had access to some of HiRez's statistical data here... I wonder if you could set up some parameters to get an idea how often flags are returned primarily due to a "take theirs before they can cap it" strategy.

_________________
Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:49 pm

IronKane

Beta Tester

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 497

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

kjbaraja wrote:

Good to hear from a fellow Tribes veteran. You're spot on.
Now to p*** off some of the Pathfinders:
OMG, so much arrogance! It makes me wonder how many PTH are T2 vets? I suspect it's low. I find it to be too easy of a class. All speed and no skill. And they all seem to want to turn this into some kind of racing game as well as dictate who will be allowed to grab the flag, what your minimum speed shall be and other facist statements.

In T2, 95% of the players were either lights or heavies. The light being the equivalent of the T:A Soldier. Mediums were played by those who wanted a challenge.

And a lot of T2 maps had indoor flags. Scarabrae, a very popular map, was one.

and required teamwork to win. T:A needs to have some maps like that and quit catering to the prima donna PTH's.

/me sits back and waits for the reactions

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:58 pm

Yetskii

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:34 am
Posts: 754

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

People tend to forget that while t2 did not have strikes, it had bombers..

Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:05 pm

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CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!