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Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed?
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Aranha Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:50 am Posts: 1426 Location: Stockholm, Sweden	Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed? Hiya im a mid-tier player and do not claim to be rightfully qualified yet to say whats balanced or unbalanced in terms of CTF Defense VS Offense. This is pure speculation and how i currently experience the CTF mode. Something ive been noticing is that its alot harder to actually defend the flag vs stealing it and when you face a team with 5+ PTH it seems nearly impossible to keep them from grabbing the flag. Which brings us to stage 2 of the defense which is chasing the 200+ kph PTH and chasing seems in my opinion fundementally flawed. In low-mid tier play a heavy PTH offense team seem to be a alot more viable tactic then a solid flag defender team. Generator towers seem to be of no threat to the cappers and most mines, claymores etc get whiped after a single flag cap attempt and Technician Turrets and Doombringer Walls get disabled as soon as the generator gets shutdown. Something i would like to see is defensive tactics being stronger then they currently are so cleaning up the flagstand isnt just an army of PTH's so that other classes get more of a offensive role than they currently have when it comes to the actual flagstand defense. I love defending the flag when Raiders, Soldiers and Infiltrators etc attack. It makes the game feel alive and diverse unlike the current PTH spam meta. Possible sugguestions right of the top of my head for low-mid tier play: [] Making it harder to take down the Generator. [] Possible cap on how many PTH's a team can have (CTF). [] New items like new turrets and traps for defensive purpose. [] Lowering the pushback on PTH weaponry vs Heavies. [] Orbitial protection on the flagstand while the Generator is online. [] Tools for chasing for other classes. [*] Quicker access to the generator room for the Defending team. And honestly this game need to be ALOT less Pathfinder centric! Opinions / Sugguestions / Discussion? Thanks for the read! _________________ EU London - [iSMG] Karmasutra Karma's Data Thread! Weapon Data & Test Lab Melanious wrote: I guess the T:A jets could get me that high, being my hamster self. It feeds off my scurrying hamster leg power. Last edited by Aranha on Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:32 am

tfwarlord Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:54 pm Posts: 42	Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed? Well there still are some features that are flawed (most noticeable chasing), but you also have to remember right now, all we have are pubs. We dont have private servers with teams training together etc. To many people in ctf do not think about the team as the most important thing, but is mainly looking out for number 1 instead. It is harder to create a proper defence than an attack, but if you have tcns and a heavy protecting the gen (not to many, max 3 people i would say), where 1 of the tchs is alternating between protecting gen and repairing base turrets and radar. heavy on flag, with force fields and mines, Sentinals killing pathfinders incoming for the flag, Soldiers killing anything incoming, in midfield. Then you have a strong defence. But if you have a team all just flying all over, trying to kill anything in sight. If you have pathfinders attacking heavys, tcns attacking the enemy base instead of defending their own, no heavy on flag, no one rearing base turrets / radar, and either 0 people in gen room or 5+ (to many in gen room is just as a bad as to few), etc etc. then you are screwed. This will change when we get private servers, where an admin can kick selfish doucebags. Some times I do see a good match, where both teams are working together and are evenly matched, where people actually forfill their roles, and dont just fly around confused, like a bewildered moth in night club and those few matches are really great, and the game seems very polished. (ps. I havent mentioned attacking roles, because i am talking about defence)
Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:59 am

Aranha Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:50 am Posts: 1426 Location: Stockholm, Sweden	Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed? tfwarlord wrote: Well there still are some features that are flawed (most noticeable chasing), but you also have to remember right now, all we have are pubs. We dont have private servers with teams training together etc. To many people in ctf do not think about the team as the most important thing, but is mainly looking out for number 1 instead. It is harder to create a proper defence than an attack, but if you have tcns and a heavy protecting the gen (not to many, max 3 people i would say), where 1 of the tchs is alternating between protecting gen and repairing base turrets and radar. heavy on flag, with force fields and mines, Sentinals killing pathfinders incoming for the flag, Soldiers killing anything incoming, in midfield. Then you have a strong defence. But if you have a team all just flying all over, trying to kill anything in sight. If you have pathfinders attacking heavys, tcns attacking the enemy base instead of defending their own, no heavy on flag, no one rearing base turrets / radar, and either 0 people in gen room or 5+ (to many in gen room is just as a bad as to few), etc etc. then you are screwed. This will change when we get private servers, where an admin can kick selfish doucebags. Some times I do see a good match, where both teams are working together and are evenly matched, where people actually forfill their roles, and dont just fly around confused, like a bewildered moth in night club and those few matches are really great, and the game seems very polished. (ps. I havent mentioned attacking roles, because i am talking about defence) Great post mate! _________________ EU London - [iSMG] Karmasutra Karma's Data Thread! Weapon Data & Test Lab Melanious wrote: I guess the T:A jets could get me that high, being my hamster self. It feeds off my scurrying hamster leg power.
Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:55 am

Trilandian Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:28 pm Posts: 485	Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed? I agree that swiping the flag is currently too easy. I've had games where we had a heavy and 3+ people on the flagstand with forcefields, mines and turrets all ready to intercept cappers, but it didn't stop PTHs from just swooping in going 250 km/h and grabbing the flag before anyone had time to react. aranha wrote: [] Quicker access to the generator room for the Defending team. God, yes! I hate it when the generator goes offline or is about to, and I have to traverse a d** maze to get to it. _________________ Thump... BOOM --- My Contributions Intelligent Turret Placement Management tools --- Important Topics Missing/Broken Features - tinyurl.com/TA-MaBF Tactics tutorial - tinyurl.com/TA-HRMaTATT Call down turrets - tinyurl.com/TA-CDT Varying unlock costs - tinyurl.com/TA-HRWTVUC
Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:20 am

Eldiran Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:26 pm Posts: 256	Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed? I think part of the solution is to keep a PTH on defense for chasing any that successfully grab the flag. At least, it's worked for me thus far. However, I agree with you about the Generator on certain maps. There are some very indefensible / hard to get to generator rooms (whereas some other maps have it just right).
Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:20 am

shadowkhat Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 8:08 pm Posts: 19	Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed? aranha wrote: Hiya im a mid-tier player and do not claim to be rightfully qualified yet to say whats balanced or unbalanced in terms of CTF Defense VS Offense. This is pure speculation and how i currently experience the CTF mode. Something ive been noticing is that its alot harder to actually defend the flag vs stealing it and when you face a team with 5+ PTH it seems nearly impossible to keep them from grabbing the flag. Which brings us to stage 2 of the defense which is chasing the 200+ kph PTH and chasing seems in my opinion fundementally flawed. In low-mid tier play a heavily PTH offense team seem to be a alot more viable tactic then a solid flag defender team. Generator towers seem to be of no threat to the cappers and most mines, claymores etc get whiped after a single flag cap attempt and Technician Turrets and Doombringer Walls get disabled as soon as the generator gets shutdown. Something i would like to see is defensive tactics being stronger then they currently are so cleaning up the flagstand isnt just an army of PTH's so that other classes get more of a offensive role than they currently have when it comes to the actual flagstand defense. I love defending the flag when Raiders, Soldiers and Infiltrators etc attack. It makes the game feel alive and diverse unlike the current low-mid tier PTH spam meta. Possible sugguestions right of the top of my head for low-mid tier play: [] Making it harder to take down the Generator. [] Possible cap on how many PTH's a team can have (CTF). [] New items like new turrets and traps for defensive purpose. [] Lowering the pushback on PTH weaponry vs Heavies. [] Orbitial protection on the flagstand while the Generator is online. [] Tools for chasing for other classes. [*] Quicker access to the generator room for the Defending team. As i mid-tier player im not aware of the current CTF balance on high-tier play. Opinions / Sugguestions / Discussion? Thanks for the read! i love getting o na team that actually defends... problem is, no matter how good your defense, no matter how many tech turrets you have at the flag, no matter how many doom shields are up... one semi skilled pathfinder will scoot by at 200k+ and snag the flag with no fear of death.... or 1 guy with a spinfusor will be halfway across the map and pick off all your defenses one hit tech turrets dead... takes more time to place a turret than it does to kill one. meanwhile 10 infils will be in your base because they rushed a one class update out with no counterbalance ... stealth is far better (stealth stealth update? ) half the infils can walk right past motion sensors without setting them off, raiders with cloak don't set off anything at all had one fight me standing on a turretand was 4 tech turrets in the room not one even started to shoot at him or the other 3 raiders ... so ya i guess ..... pure offense is better than any defense at all right now .. even though defending is fun for alot of people.
Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:07 am

2ndBanana Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:34 pm Posts: 145	Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed? I dunno but 5+ pathfinders sounds kinda like a "TEAM" working together to me? If you think it is currently to easy try a week of capping and you will see that it isn't quite so easy. _________________ Always Second Best
Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:27 am

windexglow Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:56 pm Posts: 56	Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed? You can not get away with 1 person defending the flag, no matter how good you are. 1 person going after the flag can end the game very quickly if they are good.
Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:30 am

TheEschaton Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:53 pm Posts: 2941 Steam Gamer Name: LeadProphet	Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed? windexglow wrote: You can not get away with 1 person defending the flag, no matter how good you are. 1 person going after the flag can end the game very quickly if they are good. Au contrair, I have seen many a good HoF completely shut down offense pretty much by themselves. It all depends on the level of resistance coming at you, whether a lone cowboy capper or a singleton HoF. If your enemies are not playing as smart as you, then you'll look broken. _________________ Carrion (in-game name)
Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:53 am

PROJIE Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:16 am Posts: 294	Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed? depends on skill levels. It balances out much better towards the high end of play, but I could see how it's very capper-favored on the lower end (you can even see this on some of the lower end comp teams struggling to stop fast routes). _________________ Stack 'n' Hack - #1 t2 7 man team 311 - #2 base++, #2 classic team icon - #1 classic team exiled arena - #1 arena voted best player all time - t2 competitive community current best t:a player watch me annihilate newbs - www.twitch.tv/projectileomg
Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:00 am

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Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed?

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Aranha

Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:50 am
Posts: 1426
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed?

Hiya im a mid-tier player and do not claim to be rightfully qualified yet to say whats balanced or unbalanced in terms of CTF Defense VS Offense. This is pure speculation and how i currently experience the CTF mode.

Something ive been noticing is that its alot harder to actually defend the flag vs stealing it and when you face a team with 5+ PTH it seems nearly impossible to keep them from grabbing the flag. Which brings us to stage 2 of the defense which is chasing the 200+ kph PTH and chasing seems in my opinion fundementally flawed.

In low-mid tier play a heavy PTH offense team seem to be a alot more viable tactic then a solid flag defender team. Generator towers seem to be of no threat to the cappers and most mines, claymores etc get whiped after a single flag cap attempt and Technician Turrets and Doombringer Walls get disabled as soon as the generator gets shutdown.

Something i would like to see is defensive tactics being stronger then they currently are so cleaning up the flagstand isnt just an army of PTH's so that other classes get more of a offensive role than they currently have when it comes to the actual flagstand defense.

I love defending the flag when Raiders, Soldiers and Infiltrators etc attack. It makes the game feel alive and diverse unlike the current PTH spam meta.

Possible sugguestions right of the top of my head for low-mid tier play:

[*] Making it harder to take down the Generator.
[*] Possible cap on how many PTH's a team can have (CTF).
[*] New items like new turrets and traps for defensive purpose.
[*] Lowering the pushback on PTH weaponry vs Heavies.
[*] Orbitial protection on the flagstand while the Generator is online.
[*] Tools for chasing for other classes.
[*] Quicker access to the generator room for the Defending team.

And honestly this game need to be ALOT less Pathfinder centric!

Opinions / Sugguestions / Discussion?

Thanks for the read!

_________________
EU London - [iSMG] Karmasutra
Karma's Data Thread! Weapon Data & Test Lab

Melanious wrote:

I guess the T:A jets could get me that high, being my hamster self. It feeds off my scurrying hamster leg power.

Last edited by Aranha on Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:32 am

tfwarlord

Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Posts: 42

Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed?

Well there still are some features that are flawed (most noticeable chasing), but you also have to remember right now, all we have are pubs.

We dont have private servers with teams training together etc. To many people in ctf do not think about the team as the most important thing, but is mainly looking out for number 1 instead.

It is harder to create a proper defence than an attack, but if you have
tcns and a heavy protecting the gen (not to many, max 3 people i would say), where 1 of the tchs is alternating between protecting gen and repairing base turrets and radar.
heavy on flag, with force fields and mines,
Sentinals killing pathfinders incoming for the flag,
Soldiers killing anything incoming, in midfield.
Then you have a strong defence.

But if you have a team all just flying all over, trying to kill anything in sight. If you have pathfinders attacking heavys, tcns attacking the enemy base instead of defending their own, no heavy on flag, no one rearing base turrets / radar, and either 0 people in gen room or 5+ (to many in gen room is just as a bad as to few), etc etc. then you are screwed.

This will change when we get private servers, where an admin can kick selfish doucebags.

Some times I do see a good match, where both teams are working together and are evenly matched, where people actually forfill their roles, and dont just fly around confused, like a bewildered moth in night club and those few matches are really great, and the game seems very polished.

(ps. I havent mentioned attacking roles, because i am talking about defence)

Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:59 am

Aranha

Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:50 am
Posts: 1426
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed?

tfwarlord wrote:

Great post mate!

_________________
EU London - [iSMG] Karmasutra
Karma's Data Thread! Weapon Data & Test Lab

Melanious wrote:

I guess the T:A jets could get me that high, being my hamster self. It feeds off my scurrying hamster leg power.

Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:55 am

Trilandian

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:28 pm
Posts: 485

Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed?

I agree that swiping the flag is currently too easy. I've had games where we had a heavy and 3+ people on the flagstand with forcefields, mines and turrets all ready to intercept cappers, but it didn't stop PTHs from just swooping in going 250 km/h and grabbing the flag before anyone had time to react.

aranha wrote:

[*] Quicker access to the generator room for the Defending team.

God, yes! I hate it when the generator goes offline or is about to, and I have to traverse a d*** maze to get to it.

_________________
Thump... BOOM
---
My Contributions
Intelligent Turret Placement
Management tools
---
Important Topics
Missing/Broken Features - tinyurl.com/TA-MaBF
Tactics tutorial - tinyurl.com/TA-HRMaTATT
Call down turrets - tinyurl.com/TA-CDT
Varying unlock costs - tinyurl.com/TA-HRWTVUC

Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:20 am

Eldiran

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:26 pm
Posts: 256

Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed?

I think part of the solution is to keep a PTH on defense for chasing any that successfully grab the flag. At least, it's worked for me thus far.

However, I agree with you about the Generator on certain maps. There are some very indefensible / hard to get to generator rooms (whereas some other maps have it just right).

Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:20 am

shadowkhat

Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 8:08 pm
Posts: 19

Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed?

aranha wrote:

Hiya im a mid-tier player and do not claim to be rightfully qualified yet to say whats balanced or unbalanced in terms of CTF Defense VS Offense. This is pure speculation and how i currently experience the CTF mode.

Something ive been noticing is that its alot harder to actually defend the flag vs stealing it and when you face a team with 5+ PTH it seems nearly impossible to keep them from grabbing the flag. Which brings us to stage 2 of the defense which is chasing the 200+ kph PTH and chasing seems in my opinion fundementally flawed.

In low-mid tier play a heavily PTH offense team seem to be a alot more viable tactic then a solid flag defender team. Generator towers seem to be of no threat to the cappers and most mines, claymores etc get whiped after a single flag cap attempt and Technician Turrets and Doombringer Walls get disabled as soon as the generator gets shutdown.

Something i would like to see is defensive tactics being stronger then they currently are so cleaning up the flagstand isnt just an army of PTH's so that other classes get more of a offensive role than they currently have when it comes to the actual flagstand defense.

I love defending the flag when Raiders, Soldiers and Infiltrators etc attack. It makes the game feel alive and diverse unlike the current low-mid tier PTH spam meta.

Possible sugguestions right of the top of my head for low-mid tier play:

[*] Making it harder to take down the Generator.
[*] Possible cap on how many PTH's a team can have (CTF).
[*] New items like new turrets and traps for defensive purpose.
[*] Lowering the pushback on PTH weaponry vs Heavies.
[*] Orbitial protection on the flagstand while the Generator is online.
[*] Tools for chasing for other classes.
[*] Quicker access to the generator room for the Defending team.

As i mid-tier player im not aware of the current CTF balance on high-tier play.

Opinions / Sugguestions / Discussion?

Thanks for the read!

i love getting o na team that actually defends... problem is, no matter how good your defense, no matter how many tech turrets you have at the flag, no matter how many doom shields are up... one semi skilled pathfinder will scoot by at 200k+ and snag the flag with no fear of death.... or 1 guy with a spinfusor will be halfway across the map and pick off all your defenses one hit tech turrets dead... takes more time to place a turret than it does to kill one. meanwhile 10 infils will be in your base because they rushed a one class update out with no counterbalance ... stealth is far better (stealth stealth update? ) half the infils can walk right past motion sensors without setting them off, raiders with cloak don't set off anything at all had one fight me standing on a turretand was 4 tech turrets in the room not one even started to shoot at him or the other 3 raiders ...

so ya i guess ..... pure offense is better than any defense at all right now .. even though defending is fun for alot of people.

Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:07 am

2ndBanana

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:34 pm
Posts: 145

Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed?

I dunno but 5+ pathfinders sounds kinda like a "TEAM" working together to me? If you think it is currently to easy try a week of capping and you will see that it isn't quite so easy.

_________________
Always Second Best

Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:27 am

windexglow

Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:56 pm
Posts: 56

Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed?

You can not get away with 1 person defending the flag, no matter how good you are.
1 person going after the flag can end the game very quickly if they are good.

Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:30 am

TheEschaton

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:53 pm
Posts: 2941
Steam Gamer Name: LeadProphet

Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed?

windexglow wrote:

You can not get away with 1 person defending the flag, no matter how good you are.
1 person going after the flag can end the game very quickly if they are good.

Au contrair, I have seen many a good HoF completely shut down offense pretty much by themselves. It all depends on the level of resistance coming at you, whether a lone cowboy capper or a singleton HoF. If your enemies are not playing as smart as you, then you'll look broken.

_________________
Carrion (in-game name)

Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:53 am

PROJIE

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:16 am
Posts: 294

Re: Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed?

depends on skill levels. It balances out much better towards the high end of play, but I could see how it's very capper-favored on the lower end (you can even see this on some of the lower end comp teams struggling to stop fast routes).

_________________
Stack 'n' Hack - #1 t2 7 man
team 311 - #2 base++, #2 classic
team icon - #1 classic
team exiled arena - #1 arena

voted best player all time - t2 competitive community
current best t:a player
watch me annihilate newbs - www.twitch.tv/projectileomg

Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:00 am

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Is CTF Defense VS Offense fundamentally flawed?