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Machine guns are destroying good gameplay
Author	Message
resignator Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:55 am Posts: 7	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Signed. Bring back disc duels. Those that want machine guns can go play CoD.
Tue May 15, 2012 7:54 pm

Beeman1991 Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:51 am Posts: 6300 Location: British Columbia Steam Gamer Name: beeman1991	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay ArchangelXv1 wrote: Wow...this is kinda pathetic. There's 2 sides, but if we're talking specifically this forum, you are so out-gunned it's unbelievable that you're still rooting for the auto side. Right Cuz large amounts of people = moar correct So Twilight is a good movie/book now right? Even if the poll isn't scientifically accurate, it's certainly more than accurate to point out there are problems with the autos I'll keep that in mind when I make my "Which is better: Tribes or Battlefield" thread... on their forums Biased polls giving biased information = nothing of value is gained UniversalPie wrote: Its 207 pages of both random and frequent posters asking for a change to autos, countered with a whole lot of posts by you and one other guy. Two sides indeed... Two very unequal sides. So we're ignoring the comp players who posted in here, or talked about what a joke this thread is? I suppose we're going to value the "I PLAY TRIEB 10 YR AGO AN CG WUZ BALENCE THEN" people over the folks who actually continued playing tribes and don't base their posts off of s* that was debunked 100+ pages ago dsiOne wrote: 207 pages of 'arguing' 200 pages of people telling Hi-Rez to fix the d* game, 7 pages of two people apologizing. HOW TO MAKE AUTOS SKILLFUL, LESS GAMEY, AND MORE MODERN IN A COUPLE OF STEPS: Make bullets fall with gravity, don't make bullet drop personalized for each gun, have them follow gravity, only relying on projectile speed to make range differences. (This partially takes place of the RNG cone of fire, which would still be better than nothing if this is impossible) Lower the hitbox on ALL projectiles, and make every weapon projectile based. (except sniper rifles sadly, unless UE3 is really good at handling incredibly high velocities somehow, then go for it.) (This partially takes place of the RNG cone of fire) Those are the first two steps, and seeing how the game plays from that point should direct further advancement. (Are autos still OP? Maybe reduce damage, maybe reduce damage falloff range. Are they UP? Tweak velocities or hitbox sizes a bit) Did you ever think that maybe Autos are the only weapons that are fine where they are right now? Good skill curve, keeping chasing afloat, using a consistent inheritance rate, doing exactly what they were meant to do And honestly the stats don't show explosives lagging behind at all Contrary to what people keep posting, most newbies will just grab an explosive weapon (2/3 defaults have spinfusors, 1/3 has a 'nade launcher that works pretty well for midairs and practicing leading) Going into regular old matches I see far more explosives users than auto users, and comp games have always had a sensible mix of the two Really the only way to make most of the people in this thread happy would be to nerf the s* out of Autos until they weren't useful at their role (anti air+chasing weapons). I mean really... people are complaining about rapid-fire weapons having higher DPS than explosive burst damage weapons What the f* Also what hitscan weapons are you running into problems with? _________________ HELP HIREZDUKE TAKE HIS RIGHTFUL PLACE AS SUPREME DICTATOR GA2
Wed May 16, 2012 12:49 am

UniversalPie Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:01 pm Posts: 619 Location: GTA Ontario	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Beeman1991 wrote: UniversalPie wrote: Its 207 pages of both random and frequent posters asking for a change to autos, countered with a whole lot of posts by you and one other guy. Two sides indeed... Two very unequal sides. So we're ignoring the comp players who posted in here, or talked about what a joke this thread is? I suppose we're going to value the "I PLAY TRIEB 10 YR AGO AN CG WUZ BALENCE THEN" people over the folks who actually continued playing tribes and don't base their posts off of s*** that was debunked 100+ pages ago I did play tribes... CG was powerful then, but the latency sidelined the issue while the game was in its prime. It doesn't mean that the autos now should be so powerful. I don't feel that they are the huge issue that most here are making them out to be, but I do feel that they should take the back seat, and be less dominant. I've been playing Ascend since January, and obtained maybe 3 slayer awards as of three weeks ago. In the three weeks since, I have started using autos. With using autos almost exclusively, I have obtained over 40 slayers... I haven't changed my role, and I doubt my skill has improved much. I land the vast majority of my AOE shots, and yet, missing probably half my shots or more with autos has proven a dominant alternative. It seems pretty obvious that they are not a balanced part of the tribal experience. Blue plate specials on the other hand; now thats a balanced meal. _________________
Wed May 16, 2012 1:11 am

Beeman1991 Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:51 am Posts: 6300 Location: British Columbia Steam Gamer Name: beeman1991	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay UniversalPie wrote: I did play tribes... CG was powerful then, but the latency sidelined the issue while the game was in its prime. It doesn't mean that the autos now should be so powerful. I don't feel that they are the huge issue that most here are making them out to be, but I do feel that they should take the back seat, and be less dominant. They're dominant because of playstyle. The dominant tribes playstyle outside of comp is basically derivative of pub play in previous games, where the CG's dominance wasn't recognized outside of certain situations, and CG "overuse" was taboo I've been playing Ascend since January, and obtained maybe 3 slayer awards as of three weeks ago. In the three weeks since, I have started using autos. With using autos almost exclusively, I have obtained over 40 slayers... I haven't changed my role, and I doubt my skill has improved much. Are you killing floating players? Or strafing ones? I land the vast majority of my AOE shots, and yet, missing probably half my shots or more with autos has proven a dominant alternative. It seems pretty obvious that they are not a balanced part of the tribal experience. Blue plate specials on the other hand; now thats a balanced meal. BPS are artificially difficult due to the movement style, projectile speed and inheritance value You shouldnt base the difficulty of a game around artificial difficulty, and you shouldn't blame players for using reliable weapons _________________ HELP HIREZDUKE TAKE HIS RIGHTFUL PLACE AS SUPREME DICTATOR GA2
Wed May 16, 2012 2:10 am

UniversalPie Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:01 pm Posts: 619 Location: GTA Ontario	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Beeman1991 wrote: UniversalPie wrote: I've been playing Ascend since January, and obtained maybe 3 slayer awards as of three weeks ago. In the three weeks since, I have started using autos. With using autos almost exclusively, I have obtained over 40 slayers... I haven't changed my role, and I doubt my skill has improved much. Are you killing floating players? Or strafing ones? Both, thanks to throwable discs. But in any case, a strafing player isn't that much harder to hit, and unless they're HoF, they aren't accomplishing much either. _________________
Wed May 16, 2012 3:16 am

nasheruk Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:25 am Posts: 91	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Have bullets arc and loose damage with range tbh. Also remove hitscan weapons and replace them with projectiles.
Wed May 16, 2012 6:45 am

MrLordcaptain Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm Posts: 654	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay nasheruk wrote: Have bullets arc and loose damage with range tbh. Also remove hitscan weapons and replace them with projectiles. <3 _________________ Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns
Wed May 16, 2012 6:50 am

Daybreak23 Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:50 pm Posts: 119	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Totally new to this convo, and it being over 200 pages, i'll get right to the point and question. Maybe this has already been addressed. Is there a spread on the CG or the SMGs? From the minor times i've used those weapons, it seems that they don't have a spread at all. Meaning, every shot fired lands on the mark. As I recall, the T1/T2 CG had a bad spread but the CG for Meds was so bad it was dead weight, and used as spam. In theory, adding a spread to all SMGs would solve the issue. No?
Wed May 16, 2012 12:40 pm

miqueloz Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:55 pm Posts: 267	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Adding spread to SMGs would make them less skilled and more random.
Wed May 16, 2012 12:46 pm

Beeman1991 Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:51 am Posts: 6300 Location: British Columbia Steam Gamer Name: beeman1991	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay miqueloz wrote: Adding spread to SMGs would make them less skilled and more random. This Also poor netcode+high ping made CG's and snipers far less effective in prev. Tribes titles It WOULD be cool though if they swapped autos to 100% inheritance _________________ HELP HIREZDUKE TAKE HIS RIGHTFUL PLACE AS SUPREME DICTATOR GA2
Wed May 16, 2012 12:52 pm

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Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

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resignator

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:55 am
Posts: 7

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Signed. Bring back disc duels. Those that want machine guns can go play CoD.

Tue May 15, 2012 7:54 pm

Beeman1991

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:51 am
Posts: 6300
Location: British Columbia
Steam Gamer Name: beeman1991

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

ArchangelXv1 wrote:

Wow...this is kinda pathetic. There's 2 sides, but if we're talking specifically this forum, you are so out-gunned it's unbelievable that you're still rooting for the auto side.
Right
Cuz large amounts of people = moar correct
So Twilight is a good movie/book now right?

Even if the poll isn't scientifically accurate, it's certainly more than accurate to point out there are problems with the autos
I'll keep that in mind when I make my "Which is better: Tribes or Battlefield" thread... on their forums
Biased polls giving biased information = nothing of value is gained

UniversalPie wrote:

Its 207 pages of both random and frequent posters asking for a change to autos, countered with a whole lot of posts by you and one other guy. Two sides indeed... Two very unequal sides.

So we're ignoring the comp players who posted in here, or talked about what a joke this thread is?
I suppose we're going to value the "I PLAY TRIEB 10 YR AGO AN CG WUZ BALENCE THEN" people over the folks who actually continued playing tribes and don't base their posts off of s*** that was debunked 100+ pages ago

dsiOne wrote:

207 pages of 'arguing'
200 pages of people telling Hi-Rez to fix the d*** game, 7 pages of two people apologizing.

HOW TO MAKE AUTOS SKILLFUL, LESS GAMEY, AND MORE MODERN IN A COUPLE OF STEPS:
Make bullets fall with gravity, don't make bullet drop personalized for each gun, have them follow gravity, only relying on projectile speed to make range differences. (This partially takes place of the RNG cone of fire, which would still be better than nothing if this is impossible)
Lower the hitbox on ALL projectiles, and make every weapon projectile based. (except sniper rifles sadly, unless UE3 is really good at handling incredibly high velocities somehow, then go for it.) (This partially takes place of the RNG cone of fire)

Those are the first two steps, and seeing how the game plays from that point should direct further advancement. (Are autos still OP? Maybe reduce damage, maybe reduce damage falloff range. Are they UP? Tweak velocities or hitbox sizes a bit)

Did you ever think that maybe Autos are the only weapons that are fine where they are right now?
Good skill curve, keeping chasing afloat, using a consistent inheritance rate, doing exactly what they were meant to do

And honestly the stats don't show explosives lagging behind at all
Contrary to what people keep posting, most newbies will just grab an explosive weapon (2/3 defaults have spinfusors, 1/3 has a 'nade launcher that works pretty well for midairs and practicing leading)
Going into regular old matches I see far more explosives users than auto users, and comp games have always had a sensible mix of the two
Really the only way to make most of the people in this thread happy would be to nerf the s*** out of Autos until they weren't useful at their role (anti air+chasing weapons). I mean really... people are complaining about rapid-fire weapons having higher DPS than explosive burst damage weapons
What the f***
Also what hitscan weapons are you running into problems with?

_________________
HELP HIREZDUKE TAKE HIS RIGHTFUL PLACE AS SUPREME DICTATOR GA2

Wed May 16, 2012 12:49 am

UniversalPie

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 619
Location: GTA Ontario

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Beeman1991 wrote:

UniversalPie wrote:

Its 207 pages of both random and frequent posters asking for a change to autos, countered with a whole lot of posts by you and one other guy. Two sides indeed... Two very unequal sides.

_________________

Wed May 16, 2012 1:11 am

Beeman1991

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:51 am
Posts: 6300
Location: British Columbia
Steam Gamer Name: beeman1991

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

UniversalPie wrote:

I did play tribes... CG was powerful then, but the latency sidelined the issue while the game was in its prime. It doesn't mean that the autos now should be so powerful. I don't feel that they are the huge issue that most here are making them out to be, but I do feel that they should take the back seat, and be less dominant.
They're dominant because of playstyle. The dominant tribes playstyle outside of comp is basically derivative of pub play in previous games, where the CG's dominance wasn't recognized outside of certain situations, and CG "overuse" was taboo

I've been playing Ascend since January, and obtained maybe 3 slayer awards as of three weeks ago. In the three weeks since, I have started using autos. With using autos almost exclusively, I have obtained over 40 slayers... I haven't changed my role, and I doubt my skill has improved much.
Are you killing floating players? Or strafing ones?

I land the vast majority of my AOE shots, and yet, missing probably half my shots or more with autos has proven a dominant alternative. It seems pretty obvious that they are not a balanced part of the tribal experience. Blue plate specials on the other hand; now thats a balanced meal.
BPS are artificially difficult due to the movement style, projectile speed and inheritance value
You shouldnt base the difficulty of a game around artificial difficulty, and you shouldn't blame players for using reliable weapons

_________________
HELP HIREZDUKE TAKE HIS RIGHTFUL PLACE AS SUPREME DICTATOR GA2

Wed May 16, 2012 2:10 am

UniversalPie

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 619
Location: GTA Ontario

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Beeman1991 wrote:

UniversalPie wrote:

I've been playing Ascend since January, and obtained maybe 3 slayer awards as of three weeks ago. In the three weeks since, I have started using autos. With using autos almost exclusively, I have obtained over 40 slayers... I haven't changed my role, and I doubt my skill has improved much.
Are you killing floating players? Or strafing ones?

Both, thanks to throwable discs.

But in any case, a strafing player isn't that much harder to hit, and unless they're HoF, they aren't accomplishing much either.

_________________

Wed May 16, 2012 3:16 am

nasheruk

Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:25 am
Posts: 91

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Have bullets arc and loose damage with range tbh. Also remove hitscan weapons and replace them with projectiles.

Wed May 16, 2012 6:45 am

MrLordcaptain

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm
Posts: 654

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

nasheruk wrote:

Have bullets arc and loose damage with range tbh. Also remove hitscan weapons and replace them with projectiles.

_________________
Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns

Wed May 16, 2012 6:50 am

Daybreak23

Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:50 pm
Posts: 119

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Totally new to this convo, and it being over 200 pages, i'll get right to the point and question.
Maybe this has already been addressed.

Is there a spread on the CG or the SMGs? From the minor times i've used those weapons, it seems that they don't have a spread at all. Meaning, every shot fired lands on the mark.

As I recall, the T1/T2 CG had a bad spread but the CG for Meds was so bad it was dead weight, and used as spam.

In theory, adding a spread to all SMGs would solve the issue. No?

Wed May 16, 2012 12:40 pm

miqueloz

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:55 pm
Posts: 267

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Adding spread to SMGs would make them less skilled and more random.

Wed May 16, 2012 12:46 pm

Beeman1991

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:51 am
Posts: 6300
Location: British Columbia
Steam Gamer Name: beeman1991

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

miqueloz wrote:

Adding spread to SMGs would make them less skilled and more random.

This
Also poor netcode+high ping made CG's and snipers far less effective in prev. Tribes titles
It WOULD be cool though if they swapped autos to 100% inheritance

_________________
HELP HIREZDUKE TAKE HIS RIGHTFUL PLACE AS SUPREME DICTATOR GA2

Wed May 16, 2012 12:52 pm

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Machine guns are destroying good gameplay