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Machine guns are destroying good gameplay
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GriffN Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:52 pm Posts: 22	Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Updated 3/18, Possible Solutions at bottom This is a complicated topic. My goal here is to analyze what's really happening in the game with SMG-type automatic projectile weapons. Most threads on these weapons tend to focus on nerfing, buffing, or killing. I haven't seen a lot of discussion about what purpose the weapons serve. tl;dr in red. Example Encounter To establish a baseline, let's compare bullet-based weapons to the spinfusor in a standard encounter between two soldiers. One using the spinfusor, the other using the assault rifle. (All damage figures are taken from http://ph-matt.dyndns.org/weapondamage.php or personal testing) Soldier class: 1300 Health Spinfusor - 910 direct, 650 immediate indirect Assault Rifle - 75 close to mid range damage I'm assuming a mid-high level of skill for both players. Let's assume they both miss 1/3 of their shots (66% accuracy). The spinfusor will kill his enemy in two shots (650 * 2 = 1300), so let's say it took him three total. The assault rifle needs to land 18 shots (18 * 75 = 1350). Missing 1/3 of his shots, we'll assume it took 27 shots. The spinfusor reloads every 1.88 seconds, with two reloads necessary : 2 * 1.88 = 3.76 seconds to fire three shots, and add some time for the projectile to travel, for ~4-4.5 seconds a kill The assault rifle fires a round every .105 seconds : 27 * .105 = 2.835 seconds for a kill (without upgrades the AR has a 28 mag size, 32 upgraded) In a perfect situation where the spinfusor lands 2 direct shots, you still need ~2.5 seconds to make a kill. In a less ideal situation, where the assault rifle misses half its shots and needs to reload: 36(rounds) * .105(rounds/second) + 1.2(seconds for reload) = 4.98 seconds for the kill I think that makes it pretty clear that, at least under laboratory conditions, it's easier to get a kill with the assault rifle than the spinfusor. But there's a lot of context that's missing here. Dynamics of machine guns vs Spinfusor To land a successful indirect spinfusor disc: Your target at least needs to be near a surface. You need to understand how your own movement will effect the disc (inheritance). You need to predict where your target is going to move (because of the projectile speed). You are NEVER going to hit someone as fast as you can shoot. To land a successful assault rifle round: You only need a line of sight. (The lead is incredibly easy to decipher with all rounds leaving a trail) So you can effectively shoot the assault rifle at a constant rate. Whereas, with the spinfusor, you need to create certain conditions that make a successful shot probable. Very simply, it's easier to get a kill with the assault rifle than the spinfusor. This is a particularly interesting situation, given that the assault rifle is considered an underpowered weapon (weakest of the automatics), and the spinfusor is likely overpowered. (If you don't agree, look how much people cry about the Technician's Thumper. They're effectively the same weapon. They have exactly the same damage potential. Except the spinfusor is even easier to use than the thumper.) http://ph-matt.dyndns.org/weapondamagei ... =on&w26=on Since the assault rifle is easier to use than the spinfusor, why would I ever use the spinfusor? Beyond this, why would I ever use something that's not an automatic machine gun? Chasing Chasing is difficult. There's no doubt about it, chasing is much more difficult than it is to grab the flag at a reasonably fast speed. But how often are you using a machine gun to chase? Assuming a mid-high skill level again, you lose if you're trying to chase someone from your flag stand, when you're at a dead stop and they're moving 200+. I've been playing Tribes since 1999, so I understand a little about chasing. Chasing a light in a medium class is usually a losing proposition. So are you chasing in Infiltrator? Probably not. But they have their Rhino SMG. Are you chasing in Sentinel? You can, since they have an energy pack and the (ridiculous) Falcon. But you're better off staying put and using your SkillRifle™ to hitscan them to death. To give yourself the best opportunity as a dedicated chaser, you're either standing near the enemy base, or standing on a hill mid-field. In Pathfinder. (Yes, there are other ways, but these are often the most reliable.) So I disagree with the argument that the machine guns are justified by chasing. If they're just for chasing, then we don't need them on 7 of 8 classes. Detriment to Gameplay This mostly invalidates skill-based weapons like the spinfusor. The iconic bread-and-butter stormhammer loses the bulk of its utility. Any kind of direct-fire explosive is unnecessary, unless you need to destroy a stationary target from a distance (sensors, turrets, flag defenses). I'm going to get a little gushy here, but direct-fire explosives are a big part of what makes Tribes a fun and unique game. Fights require skill and creativity. There's always the aspect of a mental battle, messing with your opponent's sense of how you'll act. You have to time and conserve your energy use. You have to use the terrain to your advantage. Allowing this game to be dominated by machine guns just throws all of that away. It forces everyone to conform to boring one-dimensional bullet spamming. I don't want to play a game like that. I want to play a game that requires and rewards skill and finesse. I want to play a game like Tribes. "Chaingun whoring has always been in Tribes" This is a poor argument. First, the analogy is poor, because the Tribes chaingun/vulcan had a cone of fire. You could reasonably get away from someone firing a chaingun. Also, the damage potential didn't entirely trump all other weapons. Beyond this, even if chainguns were entirely overpowered in previous Tribes games, that doesn't justify them being overpowered in this game. Conclusion I think the game would be improved overall if most machine guns were removed entirely. That doesn't mean they should be removed, but it's indicative of a huge problem. This needs to be addressed, otherwise Tribes: Ascend is dead. Especially in the last week, I've run into a lot of games (CTF, Arena, and TDM) that have been dominated with machine guns. People have figured out that they can overcome their skill deficiencies by using an SMG. It's absolutely no fun. There's certainly no metagaming future here. If this doesn't change, I know I'm gone in the next couple months. There are games out there that aren't broken. Even if they aren't Tribes. Possible Solutions DPS reduction, balanced by eliminating falloff damage Faster projectiles and/or fire rate, but overall DPS reduction Alterations to clip size Increased reload time T:V style machine guns, where the accuracy degrades the longer you continuously fire Spinup time Different firing options (semi-automatic, 3 round burst) Recoil How can these options work? What are other options that could work? Last edited by GriffN on Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:12 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:57 pm

Whitewhale Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:09 pm Posts: 3556	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay u r correct be ready for pr0 g4m3rs to tell u that real skill in tribes is using chain and u r a scrub for using disc apparently the best players just chain w****
Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:26 pm

Elysiume Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:33 pm Posts: 1058	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay +1 _________________ 100% inheritance is something the game needs. Jetpacks need to behave more like jetpacks, at all speeds.
Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:39 pm

DrEuthanasia Beta Tester Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm Posts: 1101	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay If you don't mind, what's your opinion of the two semi-auto pistols in the game (the SN7 and Nova Blaster)? They're far less forgiving than any of the machine guns, but their potential damage over time is much higher, and they work under most of the same conditions. Would you say they're also out of line, or is it the ease of use which makes the SMGs and ARs less fair?
Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:44 pm

Freehugmachine Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:42 pm Posts: 2	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay +1 It's never fun to be taken down by an smg, it's even less fun to kill with one. Perhaps automatics should do more damage the lower the health of your opponent, with damage being pitiful against a healthy foe.
Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:50 pm

LumensAquilae Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:04 am Posts: 277	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Wordy post but I agree that the automatics are mostly detrimental to the dogfighting and dueling gameplay that sets this title apart from every other game in the FPS genre. With the 'grace weapons' fights involve a whole lot of thought from both players. Positioning yourself, predicting your opponents path while keeping track of his shots and reloads, managing your energy until you see an opening for that perfect shot. It is a far cry from most modern shooters where combat often comes down to who tracks and clicks first. Unfortunately when you get into sessions where the majority of players use automatics the game feels less like the former and more like the latter. Suddenly positioning is much less important, dodging goes out the window and reloads are hardly a break. You get a fight where both players are playing different games. How would you remedy this? Lower damage on automatics? Decrease accuracy? I personally think that the automatics should be secondary weapons and finishers, much like the pistols and shotguns, and they should be balanced to fit in between them. The damage should be dropped slightly and maybe accuracy should be dropped a bit. Pistols would be finishers that have high accuracy but low fire rate, rewarding well placed shots at a medium range. On the other hand you'd have SMGs, they would be less accurate and do less damage but have a high fire rate to make up for it. Shotguns have high damage but require you to get in really close to use them. There are a few exceptions, I don't have too big of a problem with the DMB chaingun simply because of the role he is designed to fill, plus I think the spinup time is a decent balancing mechanism. Running into an offensive doombringer is pretty dumb though. The SN7 and Nova Blasters are also good weapons, they have slow projectiles and low rate of fire. They do heavy damage but require you to really predict and lead your opponent. You can't just spray and pray with them. s*** this post got long.
Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:04 am

Thelionheart Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:21 am Posts: 64	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay The AR, LAR, and chaingun need to have their projectile speed increased along with a slight to moderate damage nerf. This would help chasing because it would make mid to long range shots easier to make. It would also help bring back the spinfusor because the damage would be nerfed for the previously mentioned weapons. SMGs should be nerfed outright in the DPS department.
Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:17 am

VonSchlupeurk Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:05 pm Posts: 448	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Don't forget , this isn't a war with high stakes - this is just a game. SMG kills do not look spectacular , so people behave accordingly and favor explosives in most situations , at least in (european ?) pub games. I have seen people try to mimic the nj4 raider shooting everything style , and it turns out leading fast targets with it is not so trivial. Even the damage from a light spinfusor can add up quickly enough , combined with the disorienting knockback. Also , most maps have enough cover to avoid fire from a grounded attacker , giving the spinfusor the advantage with higher instant damage. It's annoying , yes , but not strong enough to bridge the skill gap. Falcon-wielding sentinels , however , tend to have a more focused skillset and cannot be avoided once they jet up to engage. This is mostly a complete failure to predict game balance , given that nova blaster users behave just the same , only hitting far less often. _________________ Tactician bronze badge : 500 XP. Getting it from a supply drop in combat : priceless. Last edited by VonSchlupeurk on Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:23 am

Pegasi75 Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:52 pm Posts: 95	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Hard to use aimbot with spinfusior, but much easier with ARs Me thinks alot of people are aimbotting
Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:30 am

4RT1LL3RY Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:08 pm Posts: 224	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Your math is wrong for the spinfusor time to kill. You can get off a single spinfusor shot in 0 seconds. 2 in 1.88 seconds. 3 in 3.72 seconds. I would love to see someone who can reliably land 67% of there shots against a person who knows what they are doing. In Arena the chainguns/SMGs are good because there are only two ways to fight in arena for the normal player. Floaty disc battle where who ever lands first loses. Or SMGs where you can hit the person in the air or ground, but must still do the dodging component in a duel. I support there being more weapons with high rewards when used well, like the Nova Blaster. Pegasi75 wrote: Hard to use aimbot with spinfusior, but much easier with ARs Me thinks alot of people are aimbotting I have seen people try to aimbot with the SMGs, its hilarious. It has worse accuracy then a normal person when you do a standard zig zag or figure-8 strafe. Now when they use it with the hitscan weapons, stuff is apparent. It hurts.
Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:23 am

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Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

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GriffN

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:52 pm
Posts: 22

Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Updated 3/18, Possible Solutions at bottom
This is a complicated topic. My goal here is to analyze what's really happening in the game with SMG-type automatic projectile weapons.

Most threads on these weapons tend to focus on nerfing, buffing, or killing. I haven't seen a lot of discussion about what purpose the weapons serve.

tl;dr in red.

Example Encounter

To establish a baseline, let's compare bullet-based weapons to the spinfusor in a standard encounter between two soldiers. One using the spinfusor, the other using the assault rifle.

(All damage figures are taken from http://ph-matt.dyndns.org/weapondamage.php or personal testing)
Soldier class: 1300 Health
Spinfusor - 910 direct, 650 immediate indirect
Assault Rifle - 75 close to mid range damage

I'm assuming a mid-high level of skill for both players. Let's assume they both miss 1/3 of their shots (66% accuracy).

The spinfusor will kill his enemy in two shots (650 * 2 = 1300), so let's say it took him three total.
The assault rifle needs to land 18 shots (18 * 75 = 1350). Missing 1/3 of his shots, we'll assume it took 27 shots.

The spinfusor reloads every 1.88 seconds, with two reloads necessary : 2 * 1.88 = 3.76 seconds to fire three shots, and add some time for the projectile to travel, for ~4-4.5 seconds a kill
The assault rifle fires a round every .105 seconds : 27 * .105 = 2.835 seconds for a kill (without upgrades the AR has a 28 mag size, 32 upgraded)

In a perfect situation where the spinfusor lands 2 direct shots, you still need ~2.5 seconds to make a kill.
In a less ideal situation, where the assault rifle misses half its shots and needs to reload: 36(rounds) * .105(rounds/second) + 1.2(seconds for reload) = 4.98 seconds for the kill

I think that makes it pretty clear that, at least under laboratory conditions, it's easier to get a kill with the assault rifle than the spinfusor. But there's a lot of context that's missing here.

Dynamics of machine guns vs Spinfusor

To land a successful indirect spinfusor disc:
Your target at least needs to be near a surface.
You need to understand how your own movement will effect the disc (inheritance).
You need to predict where your target is going to move (because of the projectile speed).
You are NEVER going to hit someone as fast as you can shoot.

To land a successful assault rifle round:
You only need a line of sight.
(The lead is incredibly easy to decipher with all rounds leaving a trail)

So you can effectively shoot the assault rifle at a constant rate. Whereas, with the spinfusor, you need to create certain conditions that make a successful shot probable. Very simply, it's easier to get a kill with the assault rifle than the spinfusor.

This is a particularly interesting situation, given that the assault rifle is considered an underpowered weapon (weakest of the automatics), and the spinfusor is likely overpowered. (If you don't agree, look how much people cry about the Technician's Thumper. They're effectively the same weapon. They have exactly the same damage potential. Except the spinfusor is even easier to use than the thumper.) http://ph-matt.dyndns.org/weapondamagei ... =on&w26=on

Since the assault rifle is easier to use than the spinfusor, why would I ever use the spinfusor? Beyond this, why would I ever use something that's not an automatic machine gun?

Chasing

Chasing is difficult. There's no doubt about it, chasing is much more difficult than it is to grab the flag at a reasonably fast speed. But how often are you using a machine gun to chase?

Assuming a mid-high skill level again, you lose if you're trying to chase someone from your flag stand, when you're at a dead stop and they're moving 200+. I've been playing Tribes since 1999, so I understand a little about chasing. Chasing a light in a medium class is usually a losing proposition.

So are you chasing in Infiltrator? Probably not. But they have their Rhino SMG.
Are you chasing in Sentinel? You can, since they have an energy pack and the (ridiculous) Falcon. But you're better off staying put and using your SkillRifle™ to hitscan them to death.

To give yourself the best opportunity as a dedicated chaser, you're either standing near the enemy base, or standing on a hill mid-field. In Pathfinder. (Yes, there are other ways, but these are often the most reliable.)

So I disagree with the argument that the machine guns are justified by chasing. If they're just for chasing, then we don't need them on 7 of 8 classes.

Detriment to Gameplay

This mostly invalidates skill-based weapons like the spinfusor. The iconic bread-and-butter stormhammer loses the bulk of its utility. Any kind of direct-fire explosive is unnecessary, unless you need to destroy a stationary target from a distance (sensors, turrets, flag defenses).

I'm going to get a little gushy here, but direct-fire explosives are a big part of what makes Tribes a fun and unique game. Fights require skill and creativity. There's always the aspect of a mental battle, messing with your opponent's sense of how you'll act. You have to time and conserve your energy use. You have to use the terrain to your advantage.

Allowing this game to be dominated by machine guns just throws all of that away. It forces everyone to conform to boring one-dimensional bullet spamming.

I don't want to play a game like that. I want to play a game that requires and rewards skill and finesse. I want to play a game like Tribes.

"Chaingun whoring has always been in Tribes"

This is a poor argument. First, the analogy is poor, because the Tribes chaingun/vulcan had a cone of fire. You could reasonably get away from someone firing a chaingun. Also, the damage potential didn't entirely trump all other weapons.

Beyond this, even if chainguns were entirely overpowered in previous Tribes games, that doesn't justify them being overpowered in this game.

Conclusion

I think the game would be improved overall if most machine guns were removed entirely. That doesn't mean they should be removed, but it's indicative of a huge problem.

This needs to be addressed, otherwise Tribes: Ascend is dead. Especially in the last week, I've run into a lot of games (CTF, Arena, and TDM) that have been dominated with machine guns. People have figured out that they can overcome their skill deficiencies by using an SMG. It's absolutely no fun. There's certainly no metagaming future here.

If this doesn't change, I know I'm gone in the next couple months. There are games out there that aren't broken. Even if they aren't Tribes.

Possible Solutions

DPS reduction, balanced by eliminating falloff damage
Faster projectiles and/or fire rate, but overall DPS reduction
Alterations to clip size
Increased reload time
T:V style machine guns, where the accuracy degrades the longer you continuously fire
Spinup time
Different firing options (semi-automatic, 3 round burst)
Recoil

How can these options work?
What are other options that could work?

Last edited by GriffN on Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:12 pm, edited 7 times in total.

Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:57 pm

Whitewhale

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:09 pm
Posts: 3556

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

u r correct

be ready for pr0 g4m3rs to tell u that real skill in tribes is using chain and u r a scrub for using disc

apparently the best players just chain w**** :roll:

Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:26 pm

Elysiume

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:33 pm
Posts: 1058

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

_________________
100% inheritance is something the game needs.
Jetpacks need to behave more like jetpacks, at all speeds.

Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:39 pm

DrEuthanasia

Beta Tester

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm
Posts: 1101

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

If you don't mind, what's your opinion of the two semi-auto pistols in the game (the SN7 and Nova Blaster)? They're far less forgiving than any of the machine guns, but their potential damage over time is much higher, and they work under most of the same conditions. Would you say they're also out of line, or is it the ease of use which makes the SMGs and ARs less fair?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:44 pm

Freehugmachine

Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:42 pm
Posts: 2

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

+1
It's never fun to be taken down by an smg, it's even less fun to kill with one. Perhaps automatics should do more damage the lower the health of your opponent, with damage being pitiful against a healthy foe.

Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:50 pm

LumensAquilae

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:04 am
Posts: 277

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Wordy post but I agree that the automatics are mostly detrimental to the dogfighting and dueling gameplay that sets this title apart from every other game in the FPS genre. With the 'grace weapons' fights involve a whole lot of thought from both players. Positioning yourself, predicting your opponents path while keeping track of his shots and reloads, managing your energy until you see an opening for that perfect shot. It is a far cry from most modern shooters where combat often comes down to who tracks and clicks first.

Unfortunately when you get into sessions where the majority of players use automatics the game feels less like the former and more like the latter. Suddenly positioning is much less important, dodging goes out the window and reloads are hardly a break. You get a fight where both players are playing different games.

How would you remedy this? Lower damage on automatics? Decrease accuracy?

I personally think that the automatics should be secondary weapons and finishers, much like the pistols and shotguns, and they should be balanced to fit in between them. The damage should be dropped slightly and maybe accuracy should be dropped a bit. Pistols would be finishers that have high accuracy but low fire rate, rewarding well placed shots at a medium range. On the other hand you'd have SMGs, they would be less accurate and do less damage but have a high fire rate to make up for it. Shotguns have high damage but require you to get in really close to use them.

There are a few exceptions, I don't have too big of a problem with the DMB chaingun simply because of the role he is designed to fill, plus I think the spinup time is a decent balancing mechanism. Running into an offensive doombringer is pretty dumb though. The SN7 and Nova Blasters are also good weapons, they have slow projectiles and low rate of fire. They do heavy damage but require you to really predict and lead your opponent. You can't just spray and pray with them.

s*** this post got long.

Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:04 am

Thelionheart

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:21 am
Posts: 64

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

The AR, LAR, and chaingun need to have their projectile speed increased along with a slight to moderate damage nerf. This would help chasing because it would make mid to long range shots easier to make. It would also help bring back the spinfusor because the damage would be nerfed for the previously mentioned weapons. SMGs should be nerfed outright in the DPS department.

Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:17 am

VonSchlupeurk

Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:05 pm
Posts: 448

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Don't forget , this isn't a war with high stakes - this is just a game. SMG kills do not look spectacular , so people behave accordingly and favor explosives in most situations , at least in (european ?) pub games.

I have seen people try to mimic the nj4 raider shooting everything style , and it turns out leading fast targets with it is not so trivial. Even the damage from a light spinfusor can add up quickly enough , combined with the disorienting knockback. Also , most maps have enough cover to avoid fire from a grounded attacker , giving the spinfusor the advantage with higher instant damage.
It's annoying , yes , but not strong enough to bridge the skill gap.

Falcon-wielding sentinels , however , tend to have a more focused skillset and cannot be avoided once they jet up to engage. This is mostly a complete failure to predict game balance , given that nova blaster users behave just the same , only hitting far less often.

_________________

Tactician bronze badge : 500 XP. Getting it from a supply drop in combat : priceless.

Last edited by VonSchlupeurk on Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:23 am

Pegasi75

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:52 pm
Posts: 95

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Hard to use aimbot with spinfusior, but much easier with ARs

Me thinks alot of people are aimbotting

Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:30 am

4RT1LL3RY

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:08 pm
Posts: 224

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Your math is wrong for the spinfusor time to kill. You can get off a single spinfusor shot in 0 seconds. 2 in 1.88 seconds. 3 in 3.72 seconds.

I would love to see someone who can reliably land 67% of there shots against a person who knows what they are doing.

In Arena the chainguns/SMGs are good because there are only two ways to fight in arena for the normal player. Floaty disc battle where who ever lands first loses. Or SMGs where you can hit the person in the air or ground, but must still do the dodging component in a duel.

I support there being more weapons with high rewards when used well, like the Nova Blaster.

Pegasi75 wrote:

Hard to use aimbot with spinfusior, but much easier with ARs

Me thinks alot of people are aimbotting

I have seen people try to aimbot with the SMGs, its hilarious. It has worse accuracy then a normal person when you do a standard zig zag or figure-8 strafe. Now when they use it with the hitscan weapons, stuff is apparent. It hurts.

Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:23 am

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Machine guns are destroying good gameplay