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Tips for new posters: Please read before you post!
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Wobberjockey Beta Tester Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am Posts: 8726 Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere	Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post! 800mm wrote: Wobberjockey wrote: i guess this is just my opinion then. It is, and there is really nothing you can attach to this statement to change its nature. You don't think in T:A paying money grants you an advantage? Thats your opinion, its yours, nobody can take it from you, and you're not forced to change it. clearly you have no idea regarding sarcasm as a literary device. tell you what, i backed up my point with a number of clear pay to win examples where paying real money gives you a very large tactical advantage, and showed that T:A in it's current state is nowhere near as bad. heck the weapon is the same one way or another. same damage same everything. you show me how having paid for a MIRV puts player X at some sort of advantage over player Y who spent XP and got it later. until you bring something more factual than your opinion to back up your argument, we're done here _________________ original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read
Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:44 pm

Gehnster Beta Tester Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:38 pm Posts: 83	Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post! People just need to understand that by definition it is not pay 2 win. Even the people who are saying it is pay to win don't understand what they are saying. The game is not pay 2 win. The game is pay 2 win SOONER. Meaning, you can not pay any money to get the "better" weapons if they exist and eventually get them through time. Or you can pay money and get them SOONER. The people for the pay 2 win argument just probably think the time it takes to get the other items is unreasonable and so declare the game pay 2 win. One thing I might add is that post count doesn't always matter. I'm sure there are a lot of people who read a lot but post very little and still offer good insight into things. Not even remotely trying to say that I'm one of them, I'm not.
Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:10 pm

Newmz Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:44 pm Posts: 5068 Steam Gamer Name: newmz.tw	Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post! wobber, if we give this enough time we'll end up with an entire page of your stickies. you'd actually have to make a thread to index all of your stickies. _________________ list of common GA abbreviations COMPLAIN ABOUT BAD SMITE TEAMS HERE HiRezErez wrote: Think of all the people who like to troll sitting in chat instead of in your match
Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:23 pm

Tocs Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:54 pm Posts: 335	Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post! sigh it's the internet. If you make a good thread that doesn't get stuck, everyone reads it and responds maybe once to say +1. Then they don't read it again because they already know what it says and it's good. Nobody wants to fight against a well thought out argument If you write a crap opinion thread that leaves lots of room for others to correct your wrongness it gets people replying to it and getting into quote wars, which promotes the thread. If you want a healthy community discussion, create a system that steers people towards it. Don't make a system that steers them in the opposite direction and then write essays on why they shouldn't go that way. These horrible bad forum habits people have... a lot of them are actually good ideas for getting your opinion circulated.
Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:30 pm

Firerizer Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:35 pm Posts: 1318	Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post! LordOpeth wrote: Wobber- Yet again you are wrong! I am a precious little flower. Good post dude.. \m/ Don't lie, you were debauched. Good post.
Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:32 pm

800mm Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:41 am Posts: 105	Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post! Wobberjockey wrote: until you bring something more factual than your opinion I have, you chose to ignore it, and you insist on passing your opinion as facts. I've already replied to satarc (maybe in this thread?) since he got the idea right, and you did too, without noticing, there are many degrees of pay to win, some are extreme, some are tame, but their nature is still pay to win. Nothing changes that fact. Still confused? Let me quote yourself: Wobberjockey wrote: paying real money gives you a very large tactical advantage Here you understand that paying money and receiving an advantage constitutes pay to win, the problem is that you define "p2w" only games where the advantage is gigantic, this is a problem, you are somehow convinced that the size of the advantage changes the nature of the problem, but its really just your opinion. This is why HiRez can (and should) manipulate you into thinking the game is not pay to win, more on that on the end of the post. Thats very important so if you wish to ignore the post, at least go read that, I'll make it blue. Wobberjockey wrote: T:A in it's current state is nowhere near as bad Good, good, you got it right, its still pay to win, but its "not as pay to win" as those very bad pay to win games, the problem is that its still pay to win no matter how you look at it. Wobberjockey wrote: you show me how having paid for a MIRV puts player X at some sort of advantage over player Y who spent XP and got it later. Sure, lets take 2 players, Jonas and Cortez, ok? Jonas is a payer, Cortez is a free player. They both play juggernaut, and they both want to help their team win by clearing the flagstand. Now, its undeniable MIRV is the better tool, right? Its designed for it, now Cortez has to grind 100,000XP for the MIRV, lets say he averages 1200 XP per hour as a nonpayer, lets say he plays enough, say 3 hours, and everyday, of course lets keep in mind first win of the day. You'll have noticed I have been very generous with the XP rate, this is to favor you, since factoring in load times, 5-0s and so on, it really is a lot less than 1200, but moving on. Cortez will have to keep up for about 21 days, before he has access to MIRV, and he can be as effective as Jonas is. Now this is not just "a direct upgrade" weapon, this is one of those weapons most consider a sidegrade (unlike the X1 and throwing discs, which as far as I can tell are seen as direct upgrades). Versatility is still power. Sounds fair? No? Well thats because it isnt. But thats the way it is, so what can HiRez do, now that thay took the wrong business model and decided to stick with it? They can change the prices around, so that Cortez can get that MIRV sooner, that way, it won't feel as pay to win, and this is where I get back at what I said earlier.
Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:09 am

Gehnster Beta Tester Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:38 pm Posts: 83	Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post! 800mm wrote: Sure, lets take 2 players, Jonas and Cortez, ok? Jonas is a payer, Cortez is a free player. They both play juggernaut, and they both want to help their team win by clearing the flagstand. Now, its undeniable MIRV is the better tool, right? Its designed for it, now Cortez has to grind 100,000XP for the MIRV, lets say he averages 1200 XP per hour as a nonpayer, lets say he plays enough, say 3 hours, and everyday, of course lets keep in mind first win of the day. You'll have noticed I have been very generous with the XP rate, this is to favor you, since factoring in load times, 5-0s and so on, it really is a lot less than 1200, but moving on. Cortez will have to keep up for about 21 days, before he has access to MIRV, and he can be as effective as Jonas is. Now this is not just "a direct upgrade" weapon, this is one of those weapons most consider a sidegrade (unlike the X1 and throwing discs, which as far as I can tell are seen as direct upgrades). Versatility is still power. Sounds fair? No? Well thats because it isnt. But thats the way it is, so what can HiRez do, now that thay took the wrong business model and decided to stick with it? They can change the prices around, so that Cortez can get that MIRV sooner, that way, it won't feel as pay to win, and this is where I get back at what I said earlier. You say it yourself again and again. Help their team, better tool, as effective, upgrade, sidegrade. None of these mean Cortez is just a waste of space taking up a slot for someone who can do something useful because currently he can't do anything useful. That has never been what you said or what you mean correct? So he is still useful to his team even without the MIRV. He can still help his team win without the MIRV. So it becomes pay to use more effective weapons or pay to use better weapons. Not pay to use weapons that are actually useful and do something. And actually it isn't even those two statements I just said. It is: So it becomes pay to use more effective weapons SOONER or pay to use better weapons SOONER. Not pay to use weapons SOONER that are actually useful and do something. The sooner is VERY important because it means you don't have to actually pay any money at all, you can get them through XP.
Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:55 am

Wobberjockey Beta Tester Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am Posts: 8726 Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere	Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post! 800mm wrote: Wobberjockey wrote: until you bring something more factual than your opinion I have, you chose to ignore it, and you insist on passing your opinion as facts. I've already replied to satarc (maybe in this thread?) since he got the idea right, and you did too, without noticing, there are many degrees of pay to win, some are extreme, some are tame, but their nature is still pay to win. Nothing changes that fact. Still confused? Let me quote yourself: Wobberjockey wrote: paying real money gives you a very large tactical advantage Here you understand that paying money and receiving an advantage constitutes pay to win, the problem is that you define "p2w" only games where the advantage is gigantic, this is a problem, you are somehow convinced that the size of the advantage changes the nature of the problem, but its really just your opinion. This is why HiRez can (and should) manipulate you into thinking the game is not pay to win, more on that on the end of the post. Thats very important so if you wish to ignore the post, at least go read that, I'll make it blue. Wobberjockey wrote: T:A in it's current state is nowhere near as bad Good, good, you got it right, its still pay to win, but its "not as pay to win" as those very bad pay to win games, the problem is that its still pay to win no matter how you look at it. Wobberjockey wrote: you show me how having paid for a MIRV puts player X at some sort of advantage over player Y who spent XP and got it later. Sure, lets take 2 players, Jonas and Cortez, ok? Jonas is a payer, Cortez is a free player. They both play juggernaut, and they both want to help their team win by clearing the flagstand. Now, its undeniable MIRV is the better tool, right? Its designed for it, now Cortez has to grind 100,000XP for the MIRV, lets say he averages 1200 XP per hour as a nonpayer, lets say he plays enough, say 3 hours, and everyday, of course lets keep in mind first win of the day. You'll have noticed I have been very generous with the XP rate, this is to favor you, since factoring in load times, 5-0s and so on, it really is a lot less than 1200, but moving on. Cortez will have to keep up for about 21 days, before he has access to MIRV, and he can be as effective as Jonas is. Now this is not just "a direct upgrade" weapon, this is one of those weapons most consider a sidegrade (unlike the X1 and throwing discs, which as far as I can tell are seen as direct upgrades). Versatility is still power. Sounds fair? No? Well thats because it isnt. But thats the way it is, so what can HiRez do, now that thay took the wrong business model and decided to stick with it? They can change the prices around, so that Cortez can get that MIRV sooner, that way, it won't feel as pay to win, and this is where I get back at what I said earlier. and at the end of those 21 days, both players will be equally effective. heck we'll call it 25 days because that will allow both to max out the weapon totally. jonas and cortez would posses and fire the EXACT SAME MIRV. in a REAL pay to win game cortez's version of the mirv would NEVER be able to be as effective as Jonas. it would do less damage, or shoot slower, or aybe they would need to unlock it every 30 days or so. but it would somehow, someway, be inferior you are taking 2 separate arguments and rolling them into 1 argument 1: weapons paid for are more effective than weapons not paid for argument 2: it takes to long to earn weapons without paying argument 1 is false for 1 reason. YOU UNLOCK THE SAME WEAPON. this alone means that the game cannot be pay to win. if you want to argue point 2 fine, that's valid. but calling the game pay to win is false because paying money doesn't get you ANY combat advantage that cannot be gained through play time. which is EXACTLY what i said in the OP Quote: #4. THE GAME IS NOT PAY 2 WIN. by definition, pay to win implies that there is some weapon or advantage that is unobtainable by any means except payment of real currency. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. everything can be earned via playtime. Now if you have a complain about the amount of time necessary to unlock stuff, that is valid, but calling the game pay to win because it takes a long time to unlock stuff ruins your credibility just about as much as complaining about hitscan AR's. reading comprehension man... _________________ original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read
Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:09 pm

Safaex Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:55 pm Posts: 354 Location: Sweden	Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post! Now, now boys... there's enough shazbucks for eveyone... if you... just... er... play enough.
Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:09 am

Greth Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:03 pm Posts: 979 Location: Belgium Steam Gamer Name: Greth	Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post! http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... proof.html Quote: Includes: Appeal to Ignorance ("Ad Ignorantiam") Description of Burden of Proof Burden of Proof is a fallacy in which the burden of proof is placed on the wrong side. Another version occurs when a lack of evidence for side A is taken to be evidence for side B in cases in which the burden of proof actually rests on side B. A common name for this is an Appeal to Ignorance. This sort of reasoning typically has the following form: Claim X is presented by side A and the burden of proof actually rests on side B. Side B claims that X is false because there is no proof for X. In many situations, one side has the burden of proof resting on it. This side is obligated to provide evidence for its position. The claim of the other side, the one that does not bear the burden of proof, is assumed to be true unless proven otherwise. The difficulty in such cases is determining which side, if any, the burden of proof rests on. In many cases, settling this issue can be a matter of significant debate. In some cases the burden of proof is set by the situation. For example, in American law a person is assumed to be innocent until proven guilty (hence the burden of proof is on the prosecution). As another example, in debate the burden of proof is placed on the affirmative team. As a final example, in most cases the burden of proof rests on those who claim something exists (such as Bigfoot, psychic powers, universals, and sense data). Examples of Burden of Proof Bill: "I think that we should invest more money in expanding the interstate system." Jill: "I think that would be a bad idea, considering the state of the treasury." Bill: "How can anyone be against highway improvements?" Bill: "I think that some people have psychic powers." Jill: "What is your proof?" Bill: "No one has been able to prove that people do not have psychic powers." "You cannot prove that God does not exist, so He does." _________________ Wilderzone.org Admin and writer also check out my youtube.com/grethsc channel and youtube.com/leveluptv for vods and highlights
Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:36 am

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Tips for new posters: Please read before you post!

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Wobberjockey

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am
Posts: 8726
Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere

Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post!

800mm wrote:

Wobberjockey wrote:

i guess this is just my opinion then.

It is, and there is really nothing you can attach to this statement to change its nature.
You don't think in T:A paying money grants you an advantage? Thats your opinion, its yours, nobody can take it from you, and you're not forced to change it.

clearly you have no idea regarding sarcasm as a literary device.

tell you what, i backed up my point with a number of clear pay to win examples where paying real money gives you a very large tactical advantage, and showed that T:A in it's current state is nowhere near as bad. heck the weapon is the same one way or another. same damage same everything.

you show me how having paid for a MIRV puts player X at some sort of advantage over player Y who spent XP and got it later.

until you bring something more factual than your opinion to back up your argument, we're done here

_________________

original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig
The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read

Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:44 pm

Gehnster

Beta Tester

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:38 pm
Posts: 83

Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post!

People just need to understand that by definition it is not pay 2 win. Even the people who are saying it is pay to win don't understand what they are saying.

The game is not pay 2 win. The game is pay 2 win SOONER. Meaning, you can not pay any money to get the "better" weapons if they exist and eventually get them through time. Or you can pay money and get them SOONER. The people for the pay 2 win argument just probably think the time it takes to get the other items is unreasonable and so declare the game pay 2 win.

One thing I might add is that post count doesn't always matter. I'm sure there are a lot of people who read a lot but post very little and still offer good insight into things.

Not even remotely trying to say that I'm one of them, I'm not.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:10 pm

Newmz

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:44 pm
Posts: 5068
Steam Gamer Name: newmz.tw

Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post!

wobber, if we give this enough time we'll end up with an entire page of your stickies. you'd actually have to make a thread to index all of your stickies.

_________________

list of common GA abbreviations COMPLAIN ABOUT BAD SMITE TEAMS HERE

HiRezErez wrote:

Think of all the people who like to troll sitting in chat instead of in your match

Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:23 pm

Tocs

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:54 pm
Posts: 335

Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post!

*sigh* it's the internet.

If you make a good thread that doesn't get stuck, everyone reads it and responds maybe once to say +1. Then they don't read it again because they already know what it says and it's good. Nobody wants to fight against a well thought out argument

If you write a crap opinion thread that leaves lots of room for others to correct your wrongness it gets people replying to it and getting into quote wars, which promotes the thread.

If you want a healthy community discussion, create a system that steers people towards it. Don't make a system that steers them in the opposite direction and then write essays on why they shouldn't go that way.

These horrible bad forum habits people have... a lot of them are actually good ideas for getting your opinion circulated.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:30 pm

Firerizer

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:35 pm
Posts: 1318

Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post!

LordOpeth wrote:

Wobber-

Yet again you are wrong! I am a precious little flower.

Good post dude.. \m/

Don't lie, you were debauched.

Good post.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:32 pm

800mm

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:41 am
Posts: 105

Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post!

Wobberjockey wrote:

until you bring something more factual than your opinion

I have, you chose to ignore it, and you insist on passing your opinion as facts.

I've already replied to satarc (maybe in this thread?) since he got the idea right, and you did too, without noticing, there are many degrees of pay to win, some are extreme, some are tame, but their nature is still pay to win.

Nothing changes that fact.

Still confused? Let me quote yourself:

Wobberjockey wrote:

paying real money gives you a very large tactical advantage

Here you understand that paying money and receiving an advantage constitutes pay to win, the problem is that you define "p2w" only games where the advantage is gigantic, this is a problem, you are somehow convinced that the size of the advantage changes the nature of the problem, but its really just your opinion.
This is why HiRez can (and should) manipulate you into thinking the game is not pay to win, more on that on the end of the post.
Thats very important so if you wish to ignore the post, at least go read that, I'll make it blue.

Wobberjockey wrote:

T:A in it's current state is nowhere near as bad

Good, good, you got it right, its still pay to win, but its "not as pay to win" as those very bad pay to win games, the problem is that its still pay to win no matter how you look at it.

Wobberjockey wrote:

you show me how having paid for a MIRV puts player X at some sort of advantage over player Y who spent XP and got it later.

Sure, lets take 2 players, Jonas and Cortez, ok? Jonas is a payer, Cortez is a free player.
They both play juggernaut, and they both want to help their team win by clearing the flagstand.

Now, its undeniable MIRV is the better tool, right? Its designed for it, now Cortez has to grind 100,000XP for the MIRV, lets say he averages 1200 XP per hour as a nonpayer, lets say he plays enough, say 3 hours, and everyday, of course lets keep in mind first win of the day.
You'll have noticed I have been very generous with the XP rate, this is to favor you, since factoring in load times, 5-0s and so on, it really is a lot less than 1200, but moving on.

Cortez will have to keep up for about 21 days, before he has access to MIRV, and he can be as effective as Jonas is. Now this is not just "a direct upgrade" weapon, this is one of those weapons most consider a sidegrade (unlike the X1 and throwing discs, which as far as I can tell are seen as direct upgrades). Versatility is still power.

Sounds fair? No? Well thats because it isnt.
But thats the way it is, so what can HiRez do, now that thay took the wrong business model and decided to stick with it? They can change the prices around, so that Cortez can get that MIRV sooner, that way, it won't feel as pay to win, and this is where I get back at what I said earlier.

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:09 am

Gehnster

Beta Tester

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:38 pm
Posts: 83

Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post!

800mm wrote:

You say it yourself again and again. Help their team, better tool, as effective, upgrade, sidegrade. None of these mean Cortez is just a waste of space taking up a slot for someone who can do something useful because currently he can't do anything useful. That has never been what you said or what you mean correct? So he is still useful to his team even without the MIRV. He can still help his team win without the MIRV.

So it becomes pay to use more effective weapons or pay to use better weapons. Not pay to use weapons that are actually useful and do something.

And actually it isn't even those two statements I just said. It is:

So it becomes pay to use more effective weapons SOONER or pay to use better weapons SOONER. Not pay to use weapons SOONER that are actually useful and do something. The sooner is VERY important because it means you don't have to actually pay any money at all, you can get them through XP.

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:55 am

Wobberjockey

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am
Posts: 8726
Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere

Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post!

800mm wrote:

Wobberjockey wrote:

until you bring something more factual than your opinion

Wobberjockey wrote:

paying real money gives you a very large tactical advantage

Wobberjockey wrote:

T:A in it's current state is nowhere near as bad

Good, good, you got it right, its still pay to win, but its "not as pay to win" as those very bad pay to win games, the problem is that its still pay to win no matter how you look at it.

Wobberjockey wrote:

you show me how having paid for a MIRV puts player X at some sort of advantage over player Y who spent XP and got it later.

and at the end of those 21 days, both players will be equally effective. heck we'll call it 25 days because that will allow both to max out the weapon totally. jonas and cortez would posses and fire the EXACT SAME MIRV.

in a REAL pay to win game cortez's version of the mirv would NEVER be able to be as effective as Jonas. it would do less damage, or shoot slower, or aybe they would need to unlock it every 30 days or so. but it would somehow, someway, be inferior

you are taking 2 separate arguments and rolling them into 1

argument 1: weapons paid for are more effective than weapons not paid for
argument 2: it takes to long to earn weapons without paying

argument 1 is false for 1 reason. YOU UNLOCK THE SAME WEAPON. this alone means that the game cannot be pay to win.

if you want to argue point 2 fine, that's valid.
but calling the game pay to win is false because paying money doesn't get you ANY combat advantage that cannot be gained through play time.

which is EXACTLY what i said in the OP

Quote:

#4. THE GAME IS NOT PAY 2 WIN.
by definition, pay to win implies that there is some weapon or advantage that is unobtainable by any means except payment of real currency.
THIS IS NOT THE CASE. everything can be earned via playtime.
Now if you have a complain about the amount of time necessary to unlock stuff, that is valid, but calling the game pay to win because it takes a long time to unlock stuff ruins your credibility just about as much as complaining about hitscan AR's.

reading comprehension man...

_________________

original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig
The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read

Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:09 pm

Safaex

Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:55 pm
Posts: 354
Location: Sweden

Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post!

Now, now boys... there's enough shazbucks for eveyone... if you... just... er... play enough.

Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:09 am

Greth

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:03 pm
Posts: 979
Location: Belgium
Steam Gamer Name: Greth

Re: Tips for new posters: Please read before you post!

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... proof.html

Quote:

Includes: Appeal to Ignorance ("Ad Ignorantiam")

Description of Burden of Proof

Burden of Proof is a fallacy in which the burden of proof is placed on the wrong side. Another version occurs when a lack of evidence for side A is taken to be evidence for side B in cases in which the burden of proof actually rests on side B. A common name for this is an Appeal to Ignorance. This sort of reasoning typically has the following form:

Claim X is presented by side A and the burden of proof actually rests on side B.
Side B claims that X is false because there is no proof for X.
In many situations, one side has the burden of proof resting on it. This side is obligated to provide evidence for its position. The claim of the other side, the one that does not bear the burden of proof, is assumed to be true unless proven otherwise. The difficulty in such cases is determining which side, if any, the burden of proof rests on. In many cases, settling this issue can be a matter of significant debate. In some cases the burden of proof is set by the situation. For example, in American law a person is assumed to be innocent until proven guilty (hence the burden of proof is on the prosecution). As another example, in debate the burden of proof is placed on the affirmative team. As a final example, in most cases the burden of proof rests on those who claim something exists (such as Bigfoot, psychic powers, universals, and sense data).

Examples of Burden of Proof

Bill: "I think that we should invest more money in expanding the interstate system."
Jill: "I think that would be a bad idea, considering the state of the treasury."
Bill: "How can anyone be against highway improvements?"
Bill: "I think that some people have psychic powers."
Jill: "What is your proof?"
Bill: "No one has been able to prove that people do not have psychic powers."
"You cannot prove that God does not exist, so He does."

_________________
Wilderzone.org Admin and writer
also check out my youtube.com/grethsc channel
and youtube.com/leveluptv for vods and highlights

Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:36 am

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Tips for new posters: Please read before you post!