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please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP
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kwago Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:55 pm Posts: 53	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP do comp cappers use jump/jet at all? I thought that issue was resolved some time ago where jump/jet was causing speed loss.
Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:13 am

MarcDaKind Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:08 am Posts: 390 Location: Skiing on the mountains of Norway! Steam Gamer Name: MarcDaKind	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP AustinNH wrote: Just to clarify: is the goal to make this like T1/T2, or to make intuitive, realistic, and fun physics? I don't think the goal should be to make it feel like T2. The goal should be to make physics that are (A) realistic, (B) intuitive for new players (C) make it fun for advanced players. The easiest way to do this, it seems, would be to just implement simple, Newtonian physics. 1. Jetpacks with some force and vectoring that does not depend on speed. 2. Constant gravity (that does not depend on speed). 3. Some friction when skiing on the ground (does not depend on speed). 4. Some air drag that would affect you on the ground and in the air (this does increase with speed, and gives rise to a terminal velocity both in falling and in horizontal jetpacking). This is certainly realistic, so (A) is satisfied. It will be totally intuitive to new players because it's realistic and doesn't have special rules and cutoffs and magic numbers that a player has to learn. So (B) is satisfied. 3. and 4. will make it much more challenging, but still possible, to gain and maintain high speed, so there should be some added depth there for advanced players, helping (C). 3. and 4. also accomplish what the current 76 kph jetpack mechanic accomplishes, which is preventing people from accelerating to arbitrary speeds on jetpack only. Also, friction and drag could be higher for heavier classes, which would accomplish what the "friction thresholds" accomplish. That is, slowing down the heavier classes. And then we can finally buff the jet packs on the heavies. Enabling them to jet up to flag stands and so on, but still prevent them getting to high horizontal speeds, due to the ski / air friction. The things that are slowing Heavies down should not be bad energy regen / poll, and weird speed caps. It should be the big size and heavy weight of the armor. The same applies to disc jumping and acceleration. Because the air friction makes maintaining high speeds hard, we can also buff disc jumping. Helping chasers get to higher speed, while the ones already traveling fast have to use their discs and energy to maintaining the speed. This natural "rubber band effect" would greatly help chasing, while still being intuitive! _________________ It's not about 100% inheritance being a higher or lower value than another. It's about any other value being to low, or to high.
Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:48 am

RaindanceFOREVA Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:29 pm Posts: 128	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP How to fix T:A physics 1) Make gravity stronger 2) Make jetpacks WAY stronger 3) ????? 4) Profit
Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:02 pm

WerTicus Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:39 am Posts: 2620	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP ^3 = remove all s*** rules and band-aids _________________ "The simple fact is that all the time and money and skill poured into consumer research on the new Coca-Cola could not measure or reveal the deep and abiding emotional attachment to original Coca-Cola felt by so many people."
Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:49 pm

dsiOne Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:14 pm Posts: 327 Steam Gamer Name: dsi1	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP AustinNH wrote: Just to clarify: is the goal to make this like T1/T2, or to make intuitive, realistic, and fun physics? I don't think the goal should be to make it feel like T2. The goal should be to make physics that are (A) realistic, (B) intuitive for new players (C) make it fun for advanced players. The easiest way to do this, it seems, would be to just implement simple, Newtonian physics. 1. Jetpacks with some force and vectoring that does not depend on speed. 2. Constant gravity (that does not depend on speed). 3. Some friction when skiing on the ground (does not depend on speed). 4. Some air drag that would affect you on the ground and in the air (this does increase with speed, and gives rise to a terminal velocity both in falling and in horizontal jetpacking). This is certainly realistic, so (A) is satisfied. It will be totally intuitive to new players because it's realistic and doesn't have special rules and cutoffs and magic numbers that a player has to learn. So (B) is satisfied. 3. and 4. will make it much more challenging, but still possible, to gain and maintain high speed, so there should be some added depth there for advanced players, helping (C). 3. and 4. also accomplish what the current 76 kph jetpack mechanic accomplishes, which is preventing people from accelerating to arbitrary speeds on jetpack only. Also, friction and drag could be higher for heavier classes, which would accomplish what the "friction thresholds" accomplish. That is, slowing down the heavier classes. This post is all Hi Rez needs to fix physics. _________________ 100% Inheritance: It's 100% Intuitive and 100% Natural. \|\| Add Targeting Lasers Having to aim from a reference point that doesnt exist is not an intuitive or newbie friendly feature, and it will hurt the game in the long run
Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:47 pm

blecro Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:09 pm Posts: 192	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP blecro wrote: I won't be working on [http://jsbin.com/akezib] any further, I just wanted a basic jetpack visualization. I couldn't help but play with the code some more . I switched to Andrew's numbers, switched to Andrew's jetting, made the stickman properly sized, added some terrain, and added frictionless skiing. http://jsbin.com/otawib blecro wrote: You could always fix [Andrew's Player.Jet] by simply changing 1 - sidePower to 1 - sidePower * sidePower. This is an error. It should of course be sqrt(1 - sidePower * sidePower).
Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:08 pm

AustinNH Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am Posts: 83	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP blecro wrote: Adding drag only decreases overall speeds. No, adding drag gives rise to a terminal velocity that cannot be exceeded by jetpacks alone. blecro wrote: What you really want is to require skiing or disk jumping to go fast, which is exactly what T1/T2c's special jetting adjustment does. And what drag would do. _________________ 100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?
Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:39 pm

AustinNH Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am Posts: 83	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP WerTicus wrote: AustinNH wrote: Just to clarify: is the goal to make this like T1/T2, or to make intuitive, realistic, and fun physics? These are actually the same goals Not quite. See for example thrust vectoring being limited by speed in T2. More intuitive and closer to realistic than some of what is in T:A, but could be even better. _________________ 100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?
Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:41 pm

Sottilde Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:28 pm Posts: 159	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP blecro wrote: blecro wrote: I won't be working on [http://jsbin.com/akezib] any further, I just wanted a basic jetpack visualization. I couldn't help but play with the code some more . I switched to Andrew's numbers, switched to Andrew's jetting, made the stickman properly sized, added some terrain, and added frictionless skiing. http://jsbin.com/otawib blecro wrote: You could always fix [Andrew's Player.Jet] by simply changing 1 - sidePower to 1 - sidePower * sidePower. This is an error. It should of course be sqrt(1 - sidePower * sidePower). Thanks! I have a 90% working remake of T:A's physics going in jsbin, I just want to absolutely get it right so I can explain why the current bugs exist (like back/forward while jetting upward giving more speed, several s*** ways to gain speed, and the downward 72km/h wall). I think it would be much more complete with this jetting added so I will merge your code with mine. Thanks again.
Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:42 pm

AustinNH Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am Posts: 83	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP ^And thanks to both of you for taking the time make these simulations! _________________ 100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?
Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:49 pm

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please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

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kwago

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:55 pm
Posts: 53

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

do comp cappers use jump/jet at all? I thought that issue was resolved some time ago where jump/jet was causing speed loss.

Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:13 am

MarcDaKind

Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:08 am
Posts: 390
Location: Skiing on the mountains of Norway!
Steam Gamer Name: MarcDaKind

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

AustinNH wrote:

Just to clarify: is the goal to make this like T1/T2, or to make intuitive, realistic, and fun physics?

I don't think the goal should be to make it feel like T2. The goal should be to make physics that are (A) realistic, (B) intuitive for new players (C) make it fun for advanced players.

The easiest way to do this, it seems, would be to just implement simple, Newtonian physics.
1. Jetpacks with some force and vectoring that does not depend on speed.
2. Constant gravity (that does not depend on speed).
3. Some friction when skiing on the ground (does not depend on speed).
4. Some air drag that would affect you on the ground and in the air (this does increase with speed, and gives rise to a terminal velocity both in falling and in horizontal jetpacking).

This is certainly realistic, so (A) is satisfied. It will be totally intuitive to new players because it's realistic and doesn't have special rules and cutoffs and magic numbers that a player has to learn. So (B) is satisfied. 3. and 4. will make it much more challenging, but still possible, to gain and maintain high speed, so there should be some added depth there for advanced players, helping (C). 3. and 4. also accomplish what the current 76 kph jetpack mechanic accomplishes, which is preventing people from accelerating to arbitrary speeds on jetpack only. Also, friction and drag could be higher for heavier classes, which would accomplish what the "friction thresholds" accomplish. That is, slowing down the heavier classes.

And then we can finally buff the jet packs on the heavies. Enabling them to jet up to flag stands and so on, but still prevent them getting to high horizontal speeds, due to the ski / air friction. The things that are slowing Heavies down should not be bad energy regen / poll, and weird speed caps. It should be the big size and heavy weight of the armor.

The same applies to disc jumping and acceleration. Because the air friction makes maintaining high speeds hard, we can also buff disc jumping. Helping chasers get to higher speed, while the ones already traveling fast have to use their discs and energy to maintaining the speed. This natural "rubber band effect" would greatly help chasing, while still being intuitive!

_________________
It's not about 100% inheritance being a higher or lower value than another. It's about any other value being to low, or to high.

Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:48 am

RaindanceFOREVA

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:29 pm
Posts: 128

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

How to fix T:A physics

1) Make gravity stronger
2) Make jetpacks WAY stronger
3) ?????
4) Profit

Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:02 pm

WerTicus

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:39 am
Posts: 2620

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

^3 = remove all s*** rules and band-aids

_________________
"The simple fact is that all the time and money and skill poured into consumer research on the new Coca-Cola could not measure or reveal the deep and abiding emotional attachment to original Coca-Cola felt by so many people."

Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:49 pm

dsiOne

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:14 pm
Posts: 327
Steam Gamer Name: dsi1

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

AustinNH wrote:

This post is all Hi Rez needs to fix physics.

_________________
100% Inheritance: It's 100% Intuitive and 100% Natural. || Add Targeting Lasers
Having to aim from a reference point that doesnt exist is not an intuitive or newbie friendly feature, and it will hurt the game in the long run

Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:47 pm

blecro

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:09 pm
Posts: 192

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

blecro wrote:

I won't be working on [http://jsbin.com/akezib] any further, I just wanted a basic jetpack visualization.

I couldn't help but play with the code some more

. I switched to Andrew's numbers, switched to Andrew's jetting, made the stickman properly sized, added some terrain, and added frictionless skiing. http://jsbin.com/otawib

blecro wrote:

You could always fix [Andrew's Player.Jet] by simply changing 1 - sidePower to 1 - sidePower * sidePower.

This is an error. It should of course be sqrt(1 - sidePower * sidePower).

Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:08 pm

AustinNH

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am
Posts: 83

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

blecro wrote:

Adding drag only decreases overall speeds.

No, adding drag gives rise to a terminal velocity that cannot be exceeded by jetpacks alone.

blecro wrote:

What you really want is to require skiing or disk jumping to go fast, which is exactly what T1/T2c's special jetting adjustment does.

And what drag would do.

_________________
100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?

Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:39 pm

AustinNH

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am
Posts: 83

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

WerTicus wrote:

AustinNH wrote:

Just to clarify: is the goal to make this like T1/T2, or to make intuitive, realistic, and fun physics?

These are actually the same goals

Not quite. See for example thrust vectoring being limited by speed in T2. More intuitive and closer to realistic than some of what is in T:A, but could be even better.

_________________
100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?

Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:41 pm

Sottilde

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:28 pm
Posts: 159

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

blecro wrote:

I won't be working on [http://jsbin.com/akezib] any further, I just wanted a basic jetpack visualization.

I couldn't help but play with the code some more

. I switched to Andrew's numbers, switched to Andrew's jetting, made the stickman properly sized, added some terrain, and added frictionless skiing. http://jsbin.com/otawib

blecro wrote:

You could always fix [Andrew's Player.Jet] by simply changing 1 - sidePower to 1 - sidePower * sidePower.

This is an error. It should of course be sqrt(1 - sidePower * sidePower).

Thanks! I have a 90% working remake of T:A's physics going in jsbin, I just want to absolutely get it right so I can explain why the current bugs exist (like back/forward while jetting upward giving more speed, several s*** ways to gain speed, and the downward 72km/h wall). I think it would be much more complete with this jetting added so I will merge your code with mine. Thanks again.

Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:42 pm

AustinNH

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am
Posts: 83

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

^And thanks to both of you for taking the time make these simulations!

_________________
100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?

Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:49 pm

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please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP