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Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez
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TheEschaton Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:53 pm Posts: 2997 Steam Gamer Name: LeadProphet	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez Gillz wrote: I really like this idea, but I'm left questioning one thing. You mention this means more money for Hi-Rez. At first I wasn't sure how they were going to make more money from your post, but from what I understand now, you pay a small amount for weapons and items, then pay for custom class slots. My main issue is how is this going to make them MORE money? Right now you can put in around $40, and unlock everything. With your system, I imagine the same applies. If I wanted to, I could just buy every item. I don't know how much more that would be, maybe $60 total judging by your system. You can charge for class customization, but I could just buy one slot, and change it when I wanted to. Sure I COULD buy more, but if I really wanted to, I could just use one. After all of that, I'm just not sure how it would make them more money. In a game like League of Legends, there's a lot of champions to purchase from, you'd probably have to sink over $150 to buy every champion. In addition to that, there are customizable rune pages that you can pay for (again, same system as class customization), and also skins, which can only be purchased with real money. Personally, I'd like something in Tribes (that isn't game breaking) to allow for that. Skins for guns could be a possibility, but it has to be something that people would actually want. Players love skins in League of Legends because everyone can see your purchased skin, they know you bought it. Your system does technically bring in MORE money, I just think it's not enough for a large change to be justified. Maybe I missed something in your post, I'm not sure. Let me know if I did though. Skinning guns could be a possibility, as well as maybe charging to create a "team" in the game? You could have a clan tag, have members join from within the game, etc. I don't disagree with your system, I really really really like it. It would benefit both casual and competitive play, although in competitive play I imagine there will be a lot of "generic" loadouts. People will just see what the top players are using and copy that. Think of it this way - with a more popular customization system, you will bring in more total players, and earn more long-lived loyalty from them. This also means more money, no? In any case, SmoothP's Loadouts 2.0 isn't necessarily the answer - the primary point of this thread is that loadout customization needs to happen. SmoothP's system is simply an ornately worked-out gedanken experiment intended to show that whatever objections Hi-Rez might have to customized loadouts are based on inaccurate assumptions. Far from everyone worshipping SmoothP as the guy "who should run HiRez," this thread should be about how his idea shows that HiRez has no reason to avoid customizable loadouts - not for money, not for balance, not even for difficulty. But corporations are inherently cautious things. HiRez is no different. They understand how loadout systems work based on GA, so they want to simply move that mechanic over to Tribes and make it work because they KNOW it will work and make them money. They are trapping themselves in a lower level of awesome basically because it is a scary thing to bet money on something you've never done before, especially when you don't think there's much incentive to do so. As far as I'm concerned, this thread is useful just because it is trying to dispel that standard corporate caution, because in this case the caution is based on false ideas about what is truly risky and whether or not they have an incentive to do it. Hopefully that made sense; I'm not sure it did. _________________ Carrion (in-game name)
Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:54 pm

WitchDoctorVega Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am Posts: 2482 Location: On the coast, NH Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez customization ftw. If they don't implement it i'm going to get bored relatively fast. I already have almost every class i want, and very shortly i'll have enough tokens to play with raider and try that class out. adding this level of customization will make this a TRIBES game, which is what everyone wants. They will make their money, and can even keep the gold system in play if they keep using tokens that act as ingame currency to eventually put towards loadouts or weapons. Credits can stay as well becasue i like that system for upgrading turrets and purchasing vehicles. IF THEY DON'T IMPLEMENT SOME LEVEL OF CUSTOMIZATION THEY WILL START LOSING PLAYERS VERY QUICKLY, AND I WILL BE ONE OF THEM! _________________ CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!
Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:39 pm

SmoothP Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am Posts: 1590	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez hideinlight wrote: Balance > Customization. Balance + Customization >>> Balance. Quote: Just look at all the "awesome loadouts" people want. Yes, people would be more excited to play T:A and would have more fun if they could choose the loadouts they want rather than being constrained by fixed classes. Happier, more enthusiastic, players willing to spend money on the game are a Good Thing™. Quote: The ones that can do everything with no drawbacks. People have posted some awesome "do what I want" loadouts, but I haven't seen anything coming close to a "do everything" loadout, even with three weapons. In fact, I'll paypal the equivalent of a VIP package to anyone who can come up with one. Quote: Sometimes less is more, especially if people just starts going for the "best" builds. People will always gravitate toward the best loadout for how they want to play. With fixed classes, Hi-Rez decides you how you're supposed to play, and you either accept your pigeonhole and play how they tell you, or deal with a less satisfying experience. This will become even more apparent as new game types are added that have different roles, or, hell, even just different maps... Are we really supposed to believe that the same dozen classes that are adequate on Drydock are the ones you'd want on something like Scarabrae, or Minotaur, or an island map, or in every possible map in Siege, or Find and Retrieve, or Capture and Hold? It simply doesn't work like that. _________________ Give a man a pistol, and he'll play for a day... Teach a man to disc, and he'll stay devoted forever. Loadouts 2.0 - Directional Jets - True Inheritance - Cosine Splash - Active Regen - Abolish Credits
Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:25 pm

iHaTehNameGame Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:35 pm Posts: 1043 Location: San Francisco, CA Steam Gamer Name: Ignorance	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez Chainwhore Medium Armor Assault Rifle (L) SMG (L) Spinfusor (S) Energy Pack (XS) Concussive Grenades (S) Not good at everything, doesn't have to be. Spinfusor for speed, AR and SMG for killing, conc nades for flag carriers. Chainwhore Medium Armor Assault Rifle (L) Spinfusor (S) Energy Pack (L) Concussive Grenades (S) Again, Spinfusor is for speed, AR is for killing. I would absolutely hate playing those loadouts, but I would anyhow if playing to win............. Both loadouts are consistent, that's why they'd work well. SmoothP wrote: People have posted some awesome "do what I want" loadouts, but I haven't seen anything coming close to a "do everything" loadout, even with three weapons. Neither is a "do everything" loadout, but, if you start asking "what don't I have to do during CTF", the loadouts almost do everything. _________________ <An open attempt at an FPSZ> <Getting the Most Out of the Jetpack Video Series>
Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:40 pm

WitchDoctorVega Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am Posts: 2482 Location: On the coast, NH Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez custom or i'm gone _________________ CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!
Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:14 pm

SmoothP Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am Posts: 1590	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez iHaTehNameGame wrote: Not good at everything, doesn't have to be. Spinfusor for speed, AR and SMG for killing, conc nades for flag carriers. Chainwhore Medium Armor Assault Rifle (L) Spinfusor (S) Energy Pack (L) Concussive Grenades (S) Again, Spinfusor is for speed, AR is for killing. I would absolutely hate playing those loadouts, but I would anyhow if playing to win............. While this is certainly a competent midfield loadout, mediums in Loadouts 2.0 weigh ~38% more than lights (and heavies weigh ~38% more than mediums), giving lights a decisive advantage in maneuverability and making them an overall better choice for capping and/or chasing on most maps. Yes, a medium could get in more weapon jumps and carry a larger energy pack, but they'd be less powerful jumps due to the increased mass, and the pack wouldn't make up for the difference in acceleration. And with full customization, a dedicated capper would probably ditch the AR for something with more clearing power. L2.0 also has far more tools for defensive play, eg: proximity fuse on the Arx Buster / Sticky Grenades active detonation on Thumper / Frag Grenades, the ability for anyone to carry mines, and way, way, way better farming. This leads to more benefit from specialized defenders as well as an increased need for disruption, clearing, and gen play. Yay, a place for HO! So even if you're playing to win, a team full of midfielders would be totally outclassed by a more diversified squad, and you'd have plenty of highly useful loadout options that you might find more fun than whoring. Not to mention that even with the toned down rifles, every team needs a sniper. P.S. Your three weapon Chainwhore reminded me that I didn't have a true shot, medium velocity plasma wep. So I diversified the pistol weights to fill this need. You'd probably want to roll with one of those instead of the inertially compensated (aka nub inheritance) SMG. _________________ Give a man a pistol, and he'll play for a day... Teach a man to disc, and he'll stay devoted forever. Loadouts 2.0 - Directional Jets - True Inheritance - Cosine Splash - Active Regen - Abolish Credits
Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:04 am

SmoothP Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am Posts: 1590	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez - contest post moved to beginning of thread - _________________ Give a man a pistol, and he'll play for a day... Teach a man to disc, and he'll stay devoted forever. Loadouts 2.0 - Directional Jets - True Inheritance - Cosine Splash - Active Regen - Abolish Credits Last edited by SmoothP on Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:08 pm

WitchDoctorVega Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am Posts: 2482 Location: On the coast, NH Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez interesting landa....interesting. _________________ CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!
Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:51 pm

Cyanidearm Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:08 am Posts: 5	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez WitchDoctorVega wrote: custom or i'm gone Start->Control Panel->Programs and Features.
Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:34 am

SmoothP Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am Posts: 1590	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez Cyanidearm wrote: WitchDoctorVega wrote: custom or i'm gone Start->Control Panel->Programs and Features. Well, no need for that, Hi-Rez has already stated they are working on some form of customization... but it's yet to be seen how well it will (initially) stack up against L2.0. _________________ Give a man a pistol, and he'll play for a day... Teach a man to disc, and he'll stay devoted forever. Loadouts 2.0 - Directional Jets - True Inheritance - Cosine Splash - Active Regen - Abolish Credits
Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:18 pm

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Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

Author

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TheEschaton

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:53 pm
Posts: 2997
Steam Gamer Name: LeadProphet

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

Gillz wrote:

I really like this idea, but I'm left questioning one thing.

You mention this means more money for Hi-Rez. At first I wasn't sure how they were going to make more money from your post, but from what I understand now, you pay a small amount for weapons and items, then pay for custom class slots.

My main issue is how is this going to make them MORE money? Right now you can put in around $40, and unlock everything. With your system, I imagine the same applies. If I wanted to, I could just buy every item. I don't know how much more that would be, maybe $60 total judging by your system.

You can charge for class customization, but I could just buy one slot, and change it when I wanted to. Sure I COULD buy more, but if I really wanted to, I could just use one.

After all of that, I'm just not sure how it would make them more money. In a game like League of Legends, there's a lot of champions to purchase from, you'd probably have to sink over $150 to buy every champion. In addition to that, there are customizable rune pages that you can pay for (again, same system as class customization), and also skins, which can only be purchased with real money.

Personally, I'd like something in Tribes (that isn't game breaking) to allow for that. Skins for guns could be a possibility, but it has to be something that people would actually want. Players love skins in League of Legends because everyone can see your purchased skin, they know you bought it.

Your system does technically bring in MORE money, I just think it's not enough for a large change to be justified. Maybe I missed something in your post, I'm not sure. Let me know if I did though.

Skinning guns could be a possibility, as well as maybe charging to create a "team" in the game? You could have a clan tag, have members join from within the game, etc.

I don't disagree with your system, I really really really like it. It would benefit both casual and competitive play, although in competitive play I imagine there will be a lot of "generic" loadouts. People will just see what the top players are using and copy that.

Think of it this way - with a more popular customization system, you will bring in more total players, and earn more long-lived loyalty from them. This also means more money, no?

In any case, SmoothP's Loadouts 2.0 isn't necessarily the answer - the primary point of this thread is that loadout customization needs to happen. SmoothP's system is simply an ornately worked-out gedanken experiment intended to show that whatever objections Hi-Rez might have to customized loadouts are based on inaccurate assumptions.

Far from everyone worshipping SmoothP as the guy "who should run HiRez," this thread should be about how his idea shows that HiRez has no reason to avoid customizable loadouts - not for money, not for balance, not even for difficulty. But corporations are inherently cautious things. HiRez is no different. They understand how loadout systems work based on GA, so they want to simply move that mechanic over to Tribes and make it work because they KNOW it will work and make them money. They are trapping themselves in a lower level of awesome basically because it is a scary thing to bet money on something you've never done before, especially when you don't think there's much incentive to do so.

As far as I'm concerned, this thread is useful just because it is trying to dispel that standard corporate caution, because in this case the caution is based on false ideas about what is truly risky and whether or not they have an incentive to do it.

Hopefully that made sense; I'm not sure it did.

_________________
Carrion (in-game name)

Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:54 pm

WitchDoctorVega

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 2482
Location: On the coast, NH
Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

customization ftw. If they don't implement it i'm going to get bored relatively fast. I already have almost every class i want, and very shortly i'll have enough tokens to play with raider and try that class out.

adding this level of customization will make this a TRIBES game, which is what everyone wants. They will make their money, and can even keep the gold system in play if they keep using tokens that act as ingame currency to eventually put towards loadouts or weapons. Credits can stay as well becasue i like that system for upgrading turrets and purchasing vehicles.

IF THEY DON'T IMPLEMENT SOME LEVEL OF CUSTOMIZATION THEY WILL START LOSING PLAYERS VERY QUICKLY, AND I WILL BE ONE OF THEM!

_________________
CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!

Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:39 pm

SmoothP

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am
Posts: 1590

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

hideinlight wrote:

Balance > Customization.

Balance + Customization >>> Balance.

Quote:

Just look at all the "awesome loadouts" people want.

Yes, people would be more excited to play T:A and would have more fun if they could choose the loadouts *they* want rather than being constrained by fixed classes. Happier, more enthusiastic, players willing to spend money on the game are a Good Thing™.

Quote:

The ones that can do everything with no drawbacks.

People have posted some awesome "do what I want" loadouts, but I haven't seen anything coming close to a "do everything" loadout, even with three weapons.

In fact, I'll paypal the equivalent of a VIP package to anyone who can come up with one.

Quote:

Sometimes less is more, especially if people just starts going for the "best" builds.

People will always gravitate toward the best loadout *for how they want to play*. With fixed classes, Hi-Rez decides you how you're supposed to play, and you either accept your pigeonhole and play how they tell you, or deal with a less satisfying experience.

This will become even more apparent as new game types are added that have different roles, or, hell, even just different maps... Are we really supposed to believe that the same dozen classes that are adequate on Drydock are the ones you'd want on something like Scarabrae, or Minotaur, or an island map, or in every possible map in Siege, or Find and Retrieve, or Capture and Hold? It simply doesn't work like that.

_________________
Give a man a pistol, and he'll play for a day... Teach a man to disc, and he'll stay devoted forever.
Loadouts 2.0 - Directional Jets - True Inheritance - Cosine Splash - Active Regen - Abolish Credits

Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:25 pm

iHaTehNameGame

Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:35 pm
Posts: 1043
Location: San Francisco, CA
Steam Gamer Name: Ignorance

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

Chainwhore

Medium Armor
Assault Rifle (L)
SMG (L)
Spinfusor (S)
Energy Pack (XS)
Concussive Grenades (S)

Not good at everything, doesn't have to be. Spinfusor for speed, AR and SMG for killing, conc nades for flag carriers.

Chainwhore

Medium Armor
Assault Rifle (L)
Spinfusor (S)
Energy Pack (L)
Concussive Grenades (S)

Again, Spinfusor is for speed, AR is for killing.

I would absolutely hate playing those loadouts, but I would anyhow if playing to win.............
Both loadouts are consistent, that's why they'd work well.

SmoothP wrote:

People have posted some awesome "do what I want" loadouts, but I haven't seen anything coming close to a "do everything" loadout, even with three weapons.

Neither is a "do everything" loadout, but, if you start asking "what don't I have to do during CTF", the loadouts almost do everything.

_________________
<An open attempt at an FPSZ>

<Getting the Most Out of the Jetpack Video Series>

Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:40 pm

WitchDoctorVega

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 2482
Location: On the coast, NH
Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

custom or i'm gone

_________________
CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!

Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:14 pm

SmoothP

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am
Posts: 1590

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

iHaTehNameGame wrote:

Not good at everything, doesn't have to be. Spinfusor for speed, AR and SMG for killing, conc nades for flag carriers.

Chainwhore

Medium Armor
Assault Rifle (L)
Spinfusor (S)
Energy Pack (L)
Concussive Grenades (S)

Again, Spinfusor is for speed, AR is for killing.

I would absolutely hate playing those loadouts, but I would anyhow if playing to win.............

While this is certainly a competent midfield loadout, mediums in Loadouts 2.0 weigh ~38% more than lights (and heavies weigh ~38% more than mediums), giving lights a decisive advantage in maneuverability and making them an overall better choice for capping and/or chasing on most maps. Yes, a medium could get in more weapon jumps and carry a larger energy pack, but they'd be less powerful jumps due to the increased mass, and the pack wouldn't make up for the difference in acceleration. And with full customization, a dedicated capper would probably ditch the AR for something with more clearing power.

L2.0 also has far more tools for defensive play, eg: proximity fuse on the Arx Buster / Sticky Grenades active detonation on Thumper / Frag Grenades, the ability for anyone to carry mines, and way, way, way better farming. This leads to more benefit from specialized defenders as well as an increased need for disruption, clearing, and gen play. Yay, a place for HO!

So even if you're playing to win, a team full of midfielders would be totally outclassed by a more diversified squad, and you'd have plenty of highly useful loadout options that you might find more fun than whoring. Not to mention that even with the toned down rifles, every team needs a sniper.

P.S. Your three weapon Chainwhore reminded me that I didn't have a true shot, medium velocity plasma wep. So I diversified the pistol weights to fill this need. You'd probably want to roll with one of those instead of the inertially compensated (aka nub inheritance) SMG.

Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:04 am

SmoothP

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am
Posts: 1590

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

- contest post moved to beginning of thread -

Last edited by SmoothP on Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:08 pm

WitchDoctorVega

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 2482
Location: On the coast, NH
Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

interesting landa....interesting.

_________________
CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!

Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:51 pm

Cyanidearm

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:08 am
Posts: 5

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

WitchDoctorVega wrote:

custom or i'm gone

Start->Control Panel->Programs and Features.

Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:34 am

SmoothP

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am
Posts: 1590

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

Cyanidearm wrote:

WitchDoctorVega wrote:

custom or i'm gone

Start->Control Panel->Programs and Features.

Well, no need for that, Hi-Rez has already stated they are working on some form of customization... but it's yet to be seen how well it will (initially) stack up against L2.0.

Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:18 pm

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Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez