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Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez
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WitchDoctorVega Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am Posts: 2482 Location: On the coast, NH Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez -1 mabeline. He pitched an idea, a d*** good one that can be tweaked and implemented. Yes there are a ton of weapons, but i think it can be dumbed down a bit to not actually have to be a ton of weapons purchased. for an example, plasma gun s/m/l could be the same model and weapon, but upgraded. The upgrade adds weight but gives it the beneficial perk. It won't necessarily be a different weapon that is purchased but would give players the option to make that weapon more improved while compromising another. They could have a plasma gun that has the best refire rate with lowest heat consumption (L), but have to sacrifice refire rate and splash radius for the spinfusor (s). This would keep it within the idea for weight constraints and keep things balanced and fair. _________________ CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!
Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:33 pm

Spiffmeister Beta Tester Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:18 am Posts: 267	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez Nice work SmoothP, let's hope they actually listen. I do agree somewhat with Mabeline though, there are already too many double up guns (infil smg, tech smg, ar) Why can't the AR S/M/L just be something like an automatic pistol/smg/ar. Mabeline wrote: Weapons are a bad way of adding gameplay HR would never resort to that. _________________ Computer! Engage Dud Mode! "Engaging Hi Rez mode"
Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:56 pm

Mabeline Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:56 am Posts: 329 Location: eSports	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez WitchDoctorVega wrote: -1 mabeline. WitchDoctorVega wrote: He pitched an idea, a d* good one that can be tweaked and implemented. That's what I'm contesting, I think it's far too indulgent to be called a "d* good idea". WitchDoctorVega wrote: Yes there are a ton of weapons, but i think it can be dumbed down a bit to not actually have to be a ton of weapons purchased. I don't worry about purchasing (that's... whatever), it's mostly about the gameplay implications of the system. Dumbing it down fundamentally changes what he's suggesting and strips it down to "Let us pick our own loadouts" which is hardly a unique idea. WitchDoctorVega wrote: for an example, plasma gun s/m/l could be the same model and weapon, but upgraded. I assumed that. WitchDoctorVega wrote: The upgrade adds weight but gives it the beneficial perk. It won't necessarily be a different weapon that is purchased but would give players the option to make that weapon more improved while compromising another. They could have a plasma gun that has the best refire rate with lowest heat consumption (L), but have to sacrifice refire rate and splash radius for the spinfusor (s). I don't think you've thought that through much. If you do the different weapons like that, then they aren't upgrades, they're just different, and being different doesn't justify weight requirements. WitchDoctorVega wrote: This would keep it within the idea for weight constraints and keep things balanced and fair. Why should they do that? The weight requirements imply a strict upgrade system versus some other sort of resource management where you can actually do "sideways" modifications. I fundamentally disagree with the weapon size system, I don't think anything better has been proposed here. _________________ SkepticTA wrote: The only thing comp needs to ban is Mabel.
Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:32 am

EvilKoala Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:08 pm Posts: 368	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez What if they just kept the 2 weapon class system and added alternate secondaries/packs? For example, a Juggernaught would always carry the mortar, but could choose between a spinfusor or light chaingun and between an energy or regen pack. They could even be unlockable using the current system.
Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:30 am

Schottingham Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:07 pm Posts: 644	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez Mabeline makes a good point - having multiple versions of almost every weapon is a little excessive, and could get especially confusing without a different model for each (which is a lot to ask from the art team). Why not just have the three sizes of spinfusors, and one version of everything else? Each one would still have a weight value which could be tweaked to allow or disallow certain combinations. Maybe later on they could introduce new weapons that are basically size variations on the existing ones, but have shiny new models and different weight values. Some functional overlap is fine, as long as it's opening up new ways to combine weapons in a single loadout. Question: What's the reasoning behind "same burst damage but higher DPS"? Is this mainly to avoid one-hit-kill scenarios? _________________ - Fix Jetpack Physics (video) (video) - Remove regen, bring back health kits - Buff explosive jumping - 100% inheritance for "bullet" weapons (nova blaster included)
Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:36 am

Taliessin Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:09 am Posts: 26	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez I suspect you wont mind me saying the you make some of the best, nicest looking, best thought out and worded forum posts ive ever seen in roughly 6 years of forum going... thank you. _________________ 100% Inheritence, because its been PROVEN to be the right answer
Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:33 am

SmoothP Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am Posts: 1584	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez Shottingham wrote: Mabeline makes a good point - having multiple versions of almost every weapon is a little excessive, and could get especially confusing without a different model for each (which is a lot to ask from the art team). Think of there only being ONE of each weapon, which you can sink points into for slight benefits. There is no more need for new models any more than respecing a point or two in WoW requires new models. _________________ Give a man a pistol, and he'll play for a day... Teach a man to disc, and he'll stay devoted forever. Loadouts 2.0 - Directional Jets - True Inheritance - Cosine Splash - Active Regen - Abolish Credits
Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:49 am

Schottingham Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:07 pm Posts: 644	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez You know, I hadn't tried your loadout editor until just now; that makes it very clear what's going on. You pick a combination of weapons/pack that you like, then bump the "sizes" up or down as needed to meet the weight requirement. Something like a color or decal change might still be a good idea to distinguish between different sizes, though. Both as a reminder for the player and as a warning for opponents. Are you opposed to having an "empty" slot option? For example, to give up grenades in favor of heavier weapons. _________________ - Fix Jetpack Physics (video) (video) - Remove regen, bring back health kits - Buff explosive jumping - 100% inheritance for "bullet" weapons (nova blaster included)
Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:05 am

SmoothP Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am Posts: 1584	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez Schottingham wrote: You know, I hadn't tried your loadout editor until just now; that makes it very clear what's going on. You pick a combination of weapons/pack that you like, then bump the "sizes" up or down as needed to meet the weight requirement. Something like a color or decal change might still be a good idea to distinguish between different sizes, though. Both as a reminder for the player and as a warning for opponents. Are you opposed to having an "empty" slot option? For example, to give up grenades in favor of heavier weapons. Yeah, the I put together the editor as an example of how easy creating and tweaking loadouts can be. And a better UI could make it even simpler. And XS items fill role of "empty slots". The repair tool comes in XS for the belt slot, a few packs come in XS, and as for weapons there are the pistol and repair gun. Schottingham wrote: Question: What's the reasoning behind "same burst damage but higher DPS"? Is this mainly to avoid one-hit-kill scenarios? Avoiding one shots and extreme lethality is a big part of it, as I think doing so is really important. But it also makes choosing item sizes less drastic. If, for example, a Large Assault Rifle could kill someone in 6 bursts, but the small took 10, then if you primarily used your AR you'd definitely want to max it out as the large would be way, way better in nearly every situation. But if both ARs took 8 bursts, and the small could fire 6 bursts full out without overheating while the large could fire 10... well, now it's not so clear. The large is still obviously better, but the small would work just as well a lot of the time, and you could adjust your play style to make up for the difference. _________________ Give a man a pistol, and he'll play for a day... Teach a man to disc, and he'll stay devoted forever. Loadouts 2.0 - Directional Jets - True Inheritance - Cosine Splash - Active Regen - Abolish Credits
Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:46 am

TheEschaton Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:53 pm Posts: 2956 Steam Gamer Name: LeadProphet	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez It should be taken as a sign that, given how much SmoothP and I disagree on some things, I don't think he's that far off on this. Whether Loadouts 2.0 is the way to go or some other system of customization is chosen really doesn't matter - the point is that this community's discussion keeps returning to the concept of customizable loadouts because not having it is a step back in terms of putting emergent power into the hands of the players, AND from where we are standing it seems like customizable loadouts would actually MAKE HiRez more money. Hey, we could be wrong, but I don't think so. There are some questions I have concerning Loadouts 2.0 for ya, though SmoothP - although to be honest I'll just say right now that it's mostly to keep this topic bumped at the top of the stack for as long as possible; these are just quibbles: 1. If HiRez has players pay for weapon size, then doesn't that make this a "pay to win" system? I mean, the other option would be to pay OR earn through experience, but then this system makes my Tribes into something that too closely resembles an RPG for my liking (I'm all for RPGs in general, but not when I want everyone to be able to compete on the same level. Such a game should not rely on players grinding over long periods of time; it's apt to induce frustration). 2. The energy packs are doing regen instead of adding to the pool - is that how it was in T1 and T2, or did you change their mechanics to avoid their abuse with the Phase rifle? I honestly don't remember how it was right now, but I'm remembering that they gave you a little of both in the previous games? 3. Reusing models for weapons with different stats is a little worrying, because one generally relies on the visual appearance/behavior of an item in a game to understand how to counter it when it is in the hands of the enemy. This system could therefore conceivably result in a reduction of skill from the game, because it wouldn't be possible to "know" the enemy as well as before. Clever use of skins/minor model/animation changes could pretty much solve this. I'm reminded of Borderlands handled this sort of proliferation. _________________ Carrion (in-game name)
Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:39 am

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Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

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WitchDoctorVega

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 2482
Location: On the coast, NH
Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

-1 mabeline.

He pitched an idea, a d*** good one that can be tweaked and implemented. Yes there are a ton of weapons, but i think it can be dumbed down a bit to not actually have to be a ton of weapons purchased.

for an example, plasma gun s/m/l could be the same model and weapon, but upgraded. The upgrade adds weight but gives it the beneficial perk. It won't necessarily be a different weapon that is purchased but would give players the option to make that weapon more improved while compromising another. They could have a plasma gun that has the best refire rate with lowest heat consumption (L), but have to sacrifice refire rate and splash radius for the spinfusor (s).

This would keep it within the idea for weight constraints and keep things balanced and fair.

_________________
CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!

Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:33 pm

Spiffmeister

Beta Tester

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:18 am
Posts: 267

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

Nice work SmoothP, let's hope they actually listen.

I do agree somewhat with Mabeline though, there are already too many double up guns (infil smg, tech smg, ar) Why can't the AR S/M/L just be something like an automatic pistol/smg/ar.

Mabeline wrote:

Weapons are a bad way of adding gameplay

HR would never resort to that.

_________________
Computer! Engage Dud Mode!
"Engaging Hi Rez mode"

Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:56 pm

Mabeline

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:56 am
Posts: 329
Location: eSports

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

WitchDoctorVega wrote:

-1 mabeline.

WitchDoctorVega wrote:

He pitched an idea, a d*** good one that can be tweaked and implemented.

That's what I'm contesting, I think it's far too indulgent to be called a "d*** good idea".

WitchDoctorVega wrote:

Yes there are a ton of weapons, but i think it can be dumbed down a bit to not actually have to be a ton of weapons purchased.

I don't worry about purchasing (that's... whatever), it's mostly about the gameplay implications of the system. Dumbing it down fundamentally changes what he's suggesting and strips it down to "Let us pick our own loadouts" which is hardly a unique idea.

WitchDoctorVega wrote:

for an example, plasma gun s/m/l could be the same model and weapon, but upgraded.

I assumed that.

WitchDoctorVega wrote:

The upgrade adds weight but gives it the beneficial perk. It won't necessarily be a different weapon that is purchased but would give players the option to make that weapon more improved while compromising another. They could have a plasma gun that has the best refire rate with lowest heat consumption (L), but have to sacrifice refire rate and splash radius for the spinfusor (s).

I don't think you've thought that through much. If you do the different weapons like that, then they aren't upgrades, they're just different, and being different doesn't justify weight requirements.

WitchDoctorVega wrote:

This would keep it within the idea for weight constraints and keep things balanced and fair.

Why should they do that? The weight requirements imply a strict upgrade system versus some other sort of resource management where you can actually do "sideways" modifications. I fundamentally disagree with the weapon size system, I don't think anything better has been proposed here.

_________________

SkepticTA wrote:

The only thing comp needs to ban is Mabel.

Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:32 am

EvilKoala

Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:08 pm
Posts: 368

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

What if they just kept the 2 weapon class system and added alternate secondaries/packs?

For example, a Juggernaught would always carry the mortar, but could choose between a spinfusor or light chaingun and between an energy or regen pack. They could even be unlockable using the current system.

Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:30 am

Schottingham

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:07 pm
Posts: 644

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

Mabeline makes a good point - having multiple versions of almost every weapon is a little excessive, and could get especially confusing without a different model for each (which is a lot to ask from the art team).

Why not just have the three sizes of spinfusors, and one version of everything else? Each one would still have a weight value which could be tweaked to allow or disallow certain combinations. Maybe later on they could introduce new weapons that are basically size variations on the existing ones, but have shiny new models and different weight values. Some functional overlap is fine, as long as it's opening up new ways to combine weapons in a single loadout.

Question: What's the reasoning behind "same burst damage but higher DPS"? Is this mainly to avoid one-hit-kill scenarios?

_________________
- Fix Jetpack Physics (video) (video)
- Remove regen, bring back health kits
- Buff explosive jumping
- 100% inheritance for "bullet" weapons (nova blaster included)

Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:36 am

Taliessin

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:09 am
Posts: 26

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

I suspect you wont mind me saying the you make some of the best, nicest looking, best thought out and worded forum posts ive ever seen in roughly 6 years of forum going... thank you.

_________________
100% Inheritence, because its been PROVEN to be the right answer

Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:33 am

SmoothP

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am
Posts: 1584

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

Shottingham wrote:

Think of there only being ONE of each weapon, which you can sink points into for slight benefits. There is no more need for new models any more than respecing a point or two in WoW requires new models.

_________________
Give a man a pistol, and he'll play for a day... Teach a man to disc, and he'll stay devoted forever.
Loadouts 2.0 - Directional Jets - True Inheritance - Cosine Splash - Active Regen - Abolish Credits

Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:49 am

Schottingham

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:07 pm
Posts: 644

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

You know, I hadn't tried your loadout editor until just now; that makes it very clear what's going on. You pick a combination of weapons/pack that you like, then bump the "sizes" up or down as needed to meet the weight requirement. Something like a color or decal change might still be a good idea to distinguish between different sizes, though. Both as a reminder for the player and as a warning for opponents.

Are you opposed to having an "empty" slot option? For example, to give up grenades in favor of heavier weapons.

_________________
- Fix Jetpack Physics (video) (video)
- Remove regen, bring back health kits
- Buff explosive jumping
- 100% inheritance for "bullet" weapons (nova blaster included)

Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:05 am

SmoothP

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am
Posts: 1584

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

Schottingham wrote:

Yeah, the I put together the editor as an example of how easy creating and tweaking loadouts can be. And a better UI could make it even simpler.

And XS items fill role of "empty slots". The repair tool comes in XS for the belt slot, a few packs come in XS, and as for weapons there are the pistol and repair gun.

Schottingham wrote:

Question: What's the reasoning behind "same burst damage but higher DPS"? Is this mainly to avoid one-hit-kill scenarios?

Avoiding one shots and extreme lethality is a big part of it, as I think doing so is really important. But it also makes choosing item sizes less drastic. If, for example, a Large Assault Rifle could kill someone in 6 bursts, but the small took 10, then if you primarily used your AR you'd definitely want to max it out as the large would be way, way better in nearly every situation. But if both ARs took 8 bursts, and the small could fire 6 bursts full out without overheating while the large could fire 10... well, now it's not so clear. The large is still obviously better, but the small would work just as well a lot of the time, and you could adjust your play style to make up for the difference.

Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:46 am

TheEschaton

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:53 pm
Posts: 2956
Steam Gamer Name: LeadProphet

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

It should be taken as a sign that, given how much SmoothP and I disagree on some things, I don't think he's that far off on this. Whether Loadouts 2.0 is the way to go or some other system of customization is chosen really doesn't matter - the point is that this community's discussion keeps returning to the concept of customizable loadouts because not having it is a step back in terms of putting emergent power into the hands of the players, AND from where we are standing it seems like customizable loadouts would actually MAKE HiRez more money. Hey, we could be wrong, but I don't think so.

There are some questions I have concerning Loadouts 2.0 for ya, though SmoothP - although to be honest I'll just say right now that it's mostly to keep this topic bumped at the top of the stack for as long as possible; these are just quibbles:

1. If HiRez has players pay for weapon size, then doesn't that make this a "pay to win" system? I mean, the other option would be to pay OR earn through experience, but then this system makes my Tribes into something that too closely resembles an RPG for my liking (I'm all for RPGs in general, but not when I want everyone to be able to compete on the same level. Such a game should not rely on players grinding over long periods of time; it's apt to induce frustration).

2. The energy packs are doing regen instead of adding to the pool - is that how it was in T1 and T2, or did you change their mechanics to avoid their abuse with the Phase rifle? I honestly don't remember how it was right now, but I'm remembering that they gave you a little of both in the previous games?

3. Reusing models for weapons with different stats is a little worrying, because one generally relies on the visual appearance/behavior of an item in a game to understand how to counter it when it is in the hands of the enemy. This system could therefore conceivably result in a reduction of skill from the game, because it wouldn't be possible to "know" the enemy as well as before. Clever use of skins/minor model/animation changes could pretty much solve this. I'm reminded of Borderlands handled this sort of proliferation.

_________________
Carrion (in-game name)

Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:39 am

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Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez