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Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update
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daedalous Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:16 pm Posts: 26	Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update Hey guys. I play a lot of Brute and enjoy stomping pubs. Here's my take on the new equipment. Gladiator: THE BAD: Indoors, where this gun is supposed to SHINE, it's just okay. When a bad team all rushes their generator through a single entrance, you definitely cop a kill or 3. But 1. That shouldn't happen to begin with, and won't in comp play, and 2. Why make a primary that does the Fractal Grenades job worse? It's worse than the HSF for dueling as well, even indoors. I constantly find myself starved for ammo when using it. Ammo drops only give you 2 shots unperked, and it only holds 20 shots fully upgraded. I'd honestly rather have a fusion mortar than this for clearing inside. Still no reason to pick Brute over Jug in any kind of serious game, and I'll be keeping my Heavy Spinfusor after playing Gladiator all morning. THE GOOD: Instant MA explosions was the best choice made regarding this gun. Without that feature I would never touch the Gladiator again. At it's best, it's /decent/ for clearing indoors. It's quirky mechanics make it fun to use. BOTTOM LINE: The Gladiator as it is now is lacking. Heavy Spin is much more versatile (discjumps are absolutely essential to Brute mobility. You can boost with the Glad if you time your shots right, but in an I-need-an-impulse-jump-NOW situation you're completely boned) and does comparable damage in almost every situation. Rarely, all three Gladiator explosions will connect in a devastating blast that outdamages the Spin, but the long delay and/or knockback from it's own explosions prevents this from happening 90% of the time. Thus, I can find no significant advantage in any situation choosing the Gladiator over the Heavy Spinfusor. Plasma Cannon: THE GOOD: A nice situational sidegrade. This is a strong weapon indoors... just like the Raider's plasma. THE BAD: Redundancy issues with either Primary. Pair it with the Heavy Spinfusor and Quick Draw becomes mandatory (without QD, you're better off just landing all of your discs/plasmas instead of switching); then I'm giving up the Brute's best survival strategy in baserape by sacrificing Potential Energy + Shield AND most of his range without the Colt. Paired with the Gladiator, it's a backup weapon for when you inevitably run out of ammo with the Glad. I guess on the way to the enemy gen the Plasma is a decent choice for dueling outside, but I personally prefer to 1 shot the confused light classes in pubs (you know, the PTHs taking low hilly routes to cross the map) so that I don't have to stop and lose all my precious fatspeed. BOTTOM LINE: Hi-Rez, you guys did alright here making the plasma a situational choice. Those that can reliably aim with the Colt will prefer the Colt for it's versatility, range, and finishing power. For those who prefer to stay inside 100% of the time, pick the Plasma. Survival Pack: THE GOOD: This is probably the best item in this update. The "Dueling' pack, this pack is a nice increase to the Brute's dueling power. Useful in Arena. THE BAD: I don't see anything wrong with this item so far. It doesn't seem to make Brutes OP, just allows them to duel better, which would make it the perfect sidegrade to Potential Energy & Heavy Shield, which in turn allows Brutes to survive against several enemies rushing their gen/inside at once. BOTTOM LINE: As nice as this is for dueling, the Brute still has no automatic, and thus severely lacks in duels against anyone who can aim with an auto. In pubs, however... Playing CTF? I'd skip the Survival and take Heavy Shield & Potential Energy for field mobility and survivability. Playing Arena? Pick the Survival Pack. FINAL THOUGHTS: Even gimping your clearest role of base disruption by loading the HSF, Plasma, Quick Draw, and Survival Pack combo, the Brute is not a strong enough dueler outside to make him worth using in comp play. In fact, you still have a much better chance (due to range and consistent damage) dueling with the Colt. Without an automatic (or serious adjustments to the way automatics currently work, preferably), I fear the Brute will never have a viable role in competition. This update did nothing to make him viable at a pro level. Unfortunately, the Brute seems doomed to stomp pubs and nothing more. Hi-Rez: After trying this update out... it really feels like you just popped out a couple weapons without regard to competitive play to satisfy everyone pleading for a Brute update. I am a big fan and honestly appreciate the effort that goes into this game, but with all due respect, I can't help feeling like you cheaped out on us Brutes this time around. I mean, not even one skin? Hi-Rez, serious question: Do you plan to make the Brute viable in competition? Last edited by daedalous on Wed May 23, 2012 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tue May 22, 2012 8:40 pm

fubbymaster Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:21 pm Posts: 337	Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update Ye, he is still pretty weak =/
Tue May 22, 2012 9:18 pm

dukerustfield Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:09 pm Posts: 293	Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update I will not be defending any indoor bases ever again. I just bought the upgrades for Bruticus, I joined a map somewhat late, and the amount of pain I could put down was pretty staggering on Crossfire. Why people continued to try and repair their gens when they were basically walking into a little box that would be instantly filled with fractals and gladiator spam is beyond me. At close close range the Brute is truly Brute-al. I got 2nd place on a full server just by mass destruction. And yes, we did win. As soon as the map switched to Katabatic, the same brutes were brute fighting, but I switched to Juggernaut. The increased distances, including the gen room, made Mirv and the godly regen pack much better IMHO. And I think my performance bore that out. I had enough room to avoid the Brutes but they couldn't avoid me. And I could more easily nuke the stand. Gladiator fights were a lot of fun. I like the pack. I never used the plasma cannon. I used energy + safety third. He was an update the suicide Brute in that he didn't actually die. I'd hang around and keep fighting. For really tight indoor maps, I think it's going to be nearly impossible to keep your gens up. Waiting for a Technician/DB upgrade to help even it out.
Tue May 22, 2012 9:28 pm

daedalous Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:16 pm Posts: 26	Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update dukerustfield wrote: I just bought the upgrades for Bruticus, I joined a map somewhat late, and the amount of pain I could put down was pretty staggering on Crossfire. Why people continued to try and repair their gens when they were basically walking into a little box that would be instantly filled with fractals and gladiator spam is beyond me. This was the case before the update as well. In pubs, a good brute can lock the entire enemy ship down on Crossfire and come in first place, with or without the update weapons. Fractals and HSF are devastating by themselves. My main issue with this update was the lack of forethought regarding how new gear (or adjusting current gear) could make the Brute a viable competitive play option. For an update that was centered around the Brute, it did almost nothing to help him do anything new or useful.
Tue May 22, 2012 9:47 pm

TheGargoyle Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:49 pm Posts: 266 Location: Northamptonshire, England	Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update As Todd said, most importantly it's another way for the Brute to get chadi fire burning on the dance floor. Says it all, really. _________________ Tribes: Ascend game-tag: "Gargoyle" Tribes-2 game-tag: "[BDH] Pain Reaver" Classes most frequently used: "Doombringer (DMB)" "Brute (BRT)" and "Juggernaut (JUG)"
Tue May 22, 2012 10:19 pm

IKraKen Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:25 am Posts: 190	Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update The brute just isn't a viable competition option, I don't think that was Hi-Rez's focus when making these changes, it was more about giving him more options and making him an indoor fighting king. 8 out of 9 loadouts being useful in competition is pretty good, I can't imagine -no matter what new weapons the brute gets- how he could be used in comp play. _________________
Wed May 23, 2012 12:33 am

daedalous Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:16 pm Posts: 26	Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update IKraKen wrote: The brute just isn't a viable competition option, I don't think that was Hi-Rez's focus when making these changes, it was more about giving him more options and making him an indoor fighting king. 8 out of 9 loadouts being useful in competition is pretty good, I can't imagine -no matter what new weapons the brute gets- how he could be used in comp play. You don't play Brute, do ya? Hah. I'm sorry, but I was hoping for more critical thinking and less "Eh, close enough." If that comes across as arrogant, I apologize. I mean no ill-will. The hard way would be to restructure automatics so that they can't completely destroy any armor mid-air in the hands of a skilled player. The easy way out is to hand the Brute an automatic ala the JUG's LMG. The easiest way out is to say, "Screw the Brute! Everything else works okay, so it's good enough!"
Wed May 23, 2012 12:40 am

DemoEvolved Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:28 am Posts: 2031	Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update With that pack and the HSF & plasma you feel like an Everquest Barbarian - tons of mobility, damage and you can charge down on someone indoors. But you trade first hit absorb for rundown speed. It will be interesting to mix the new and old weapons and see if there are synergies that you can take advantage of. eg. Rushing with Shotty.
Wed May 23, 2012 1:36 am

SkepticTA Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:41 pm Posts: 3062	Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update Brute is now the only class that doesn't have an automatic weapon (I still count the LAR as an auto). This is FUBAR. _________________ (AHK) T:A Physics Profiler
Wed May 23, 2012 1:49 am

daedalous Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:16 pm Posts: 26	Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update SkepticTA wrote: Brute is now the only class that doesn't have an automatic weapon (I still count the LAR as an auto). This is FUBAR. Really though. Why is the Brute the joke class? Throw us a bone, Hi-Rez.
Wed May 23, 2012 1:51 am

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Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update

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daedalous

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:16 pm
Posts: 26

Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update

Hey guys. I play a lot of Brute and enjoy stomping pubs. Here's my take on the new equipment.

Gladiator:
THE BAD: Indoors, where this gun is supposed to SHINE, it's just okay. When a bad team all rushes their generator through a single entrance, you definitely cop a kill or 3. But 1. That shouldn't happen to begin with, and won't in comp play, and 2. Why make a primary that does the Fractal Grenades job *worse*? It's worse than the HSF for dueling as well, even indoors. I constantly find myself starved for ammo when using it. Ammo drops only give you 2 shots unperked, and it only holds 20 shots fully upgraded. I'd honestly rather have a fusion mortar than this for clearing inside. Still no reason to pick Brute over Jug in any kind of serious game, and I'll be keeping my Heavy Spinfusor after playing Gladiator all morning.
THE GOOD: Instant MA explosions was the best choice made regarding this gun. Without that feature I would never touch the Gladiator again. At it's best, it's /decent/ for clearing indoors. It's quirky mechanics make it fun to use.
BOTTOM LINE: The Gladiator as it is now is lacking. Heavy Spin is much more versatile (discjumps are absolutely essential to Brute mobility. You can boost with the Glad if you time your shots right, but in an I-need-an-impulse-jump-NOW situation you're completely boned) and does comparable damage in almost every situation. Rarely, all three Gladiator explosions will connect in a devastating blast that outdamages the Spin, but the long delay and/or knockback from it's own explosions prevents this from happening 90% of the time. Thus, I can find no significant advantage in any situation choosing the Gladiator over the Heavy Spinfusor.

Plasma Cannon:
THE GOOD: A nice situational sidegrade. This is a strong weapon indoors... just like the Raider's plasma.
THE BAD: Redundancy issues with either Primary. Pair it with the Heavy Spinfusor and Quick Draw becomes mandatory (without QD, you're better off just landing all of your discs/plasmas instead of switching); then I'm giving up the Brute's best survival strategy in baserape by sacrificing Potential Energy + Shield AND most of his range without the Colt. Paired with the Gladiator, it's a backup weapon for when you inevitably run out of ammo with the Glad. I guess on the way to the enemy gen the Plasma is a decent choice for dueling outside, but I personally prefer to 1 shot the confused light classes in pubs (you know, the PTHs taking low hilly routes to cross the map) so that I don't have to stop and lose all my precious fatspeed.
BOTTOM LINE: Hi-Rez, you guys did alright here making the plasma a situational choice. Those that can reliably aim with the Colt will prefer the Colt for it's versatility, range, and finishing power. For those who prefer to stay inside 100% of the time, pick the Plasma.

Survival Pack:
THE GOOD: This is probably the best item in this update. The "Dueling' pack, this pack is a nice increase to the Brute's dueling power. Useful in Arena.
THE BAD: I don't see anything wrong with this item so far. It doesn't seem to make Brutes OP, just allows them to duel better, which would make it the perfect sidegrade to Potential Energy & Heavy Shield, which in turn allows Brutes to survive against several enemies rushing their gen/inside at once.
BOTTOM LINE: As nice as this is for dueling, the Brute still has no automatic, and thus severely lacks in duels against anyone who can aim with an auto. In pubs, however... Playing CTF? I'd skip the Survival and take Heavy Shield & Potential Energy for field mobility and survivability. Playing Arena? Pick the Survival Pack.

FINAL THOUGHTS: Even gimping your clearest role of base disruption by loading the HSF, Plasma, Quick Draw, and Survival Pack combo, the Brute is not a strong enough dueler outside to make him worth using in comp play. In fact, you still have a much better chance (due to range and consistent damage) dueling with the Colt. Without an automatic (or serious adjustments to the way automatics currently work, preferably), I fear the Brute will never have a viable role in competition. This update did nothing to make him viable at a pro level. Unfortunately, the Brute seems doomed to stomp pubs and nothing more.

Hi-Rez: After trying this update out... it really feels like you just popped out a couple weapons without regard to competitive play to satisfy everyone pleading for a Brute update. I am a big fan and honestly appreciate the effort that goes into this game, but with all due respect, I can't help feeling like you cheaped out on us Brutes this time around. I mean, not even one skin? Hi-Rez, serious question: Do you plan to make the Brute viable in competition?

Last edited by daedalous on Wed May 23, 2012 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tue May 22, 2012 8:40 pm

fubbymaster

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:21 pm
Posts: 337

Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update

Ye, he is still pretty weak =/

Tue May 22, 2012 9:18 pm

dukerustfield

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:09 pm
Posts: 293

Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update

I will not be defending any indoor bases ever again.

I just bought the upgrades for Bruticus, I joined a map somewhat late, and the amount of pain I could put down was pretty staggering on Crossfire. Why people continued to try and repair their gens when they were basically walking into a little box that would be instantly filled with fractals and gladiator spam is beyond me.

At close close range the Brute is truly Brute-al. I got 2nd place on a full server just by mass destruction. And yes, we did win.

As soon as the map switched to Katabatic, the same brutes were brute fighting, but I switched to Juggernaut. The increased distances, including the gen room, made Mirv and the godly regen pack much better IMHO. And I think my performance bore that out. I had enough room to avoid the Brutes but they couldn't avoid me. And I could more easily nuke the stand.

Gladiator fights were a lot of fun. I like the pack. I never used the plasma cannon. I used energy + safety third. He was an update the suicide Brute in that he didn't actually die. I'd hang around and keep fighting. For really tight indoor maps, I think it's going to be nearly impossible to keep your gens up.

Waiting for a Technician/DB upgrade to help even it out.

Tue May 22, 2012 9:28 pm

daedalous

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:16 pm
Posts: 26

Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update

dukerustfield wrote:

I just bought the upgrades for Bruticus, I joined a map somewhat late, and the amount of pain I could put down was pretty staggering on Crossfire. Why people continued to try and repair their gens when they were basically walking into a little box that would be instantly filled with fractals and gladiator spam is beyond me.

This was the case before the update as well. In pubs, a good brute can lock the entire enemy ship down on Crossfire and come in first place, with or without the update weapons. Fractals and HSF are devastating by themselves. My main issue with this update was the lack of forethought regarding how new gear (or adjusting current gear) could make the Brute a viable competitive play option. For an update that was centered around the Brute, it did almost nothing to help him do anything new or useful.

Tue May 22, 2012 9:47 pm

TheGargoyle

Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:49 pm
Posts: 266
Location: Northamptonshire, England

Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update

As Todd said, most importantly it's another way for the Brute to get chadi fire burning on the dance floor.

Says it all, really. :roll:

_________________
Tribes: Ascend game-tag: "Gargoyle"
Tribes-2 game-tag: "[BDH] Pain Reaver"
Classes most frequently used: "Doombringer (DMB)" "Brute (BRT)" and "Juggernaut (JUG)"

Tue May 22, 2012 10:19 pm

IKraKen

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:25 am
Posts: 190

Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update

The brute just isn't a viable competition option, I don't think that was Hi-Rez's focus when making these changes, it was more about giving him more options and making him an indoor fighting king.

8 out of 9 loadouts being useful in competition is pretty good, I can't imagine -no matter what new weapons the brute gets- how he could be used in comp play.

_________________

Wed May 23, 2012 12:33 am

daedalous

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:16 pm
Posts: 26

Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update

IKraKen wrote:

You don't play Brute, do ya? Hah. I'm sorry, but I was hoping for more critical thinking and less "Eh, close enough." If that comes across as arrogant, I apologize. I mean no ill-will.

The hard way would be to restructure automatics so that they can't completely destroy any armor mid-air in the hands of a skilled player.

The easy way out is to hand the Brute an automatic ala the JUG's LMG.

The easiest way out is to say, "Screw the Brute! Everything else works okay, so it's good enough!"

Wed May 23, 2012 12:40 am

DemoEvolved

Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:28 am
Posts: 2031

Re: Career Brute insight on the Staying Alive update

With that pack and the HSF & plasma you feel like an Everquest Barbarian - tons of mobility, damage and you can charge down on someone indoors. But you trade first hit absorb for rundown speed.

It will be interesting to mix the new and old weapons and see if there are synergies that you can take advantage of. eg. Rushing with Shotty.

Wed May 23, 2012 1:36 am

SkepticTA