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About the change to XP prices
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Nark51 Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:54 pm Posts: 855 Location: United Kingdom	About the change to XP prices This is definitely a step in the right direction, as someone who has already unlocked everything in the game. From a lot of people I know that stopped playing the game, one of the main reasons they all quit the game was the massive grind, as well as the "pay2win" aspect. I'd like to talk about other problem that remains. It's with the way default loadouts are handled. Some default loadouts are absolutely abhorrently awful compared to what you need to spend weeks in the game (maybe a little less time now) to unlock and play with. A great example of a versatile and working loadout for a new player is the Soldier class. It is pretty much perfect, if not for the Thumper DX being arguably better than the Thumper D even for a new player, since the radius difference is very small. The Raider's default loadout is also very good right off the bat. The Arx Buster is a great midpoint for dueling and utility between the Grenade Launcher and Plasma Gun, and the NJ4 SMG is now better than the NJ5. The Pathfinder is also pretty decent if it wasn't for the lack of the perks REQUIRED to play it. The Light Spinfusor is pretty much a downgrade to the Dueling Spinfusor, but again it doesn't cost much. The main problem as I said is the perks, capping pretty much requires Egocentric, especially since the Pathfinder starts with 800 health (that's 1 discjump per regen, not even 2 impact nitrons since you don't even start with 2 impact nitrons). The Brute's default loadout plays about the same as the fully unlocked version of straight upgrade weapons does (Devastator & Hammer), but I guess that's just more progression like levelling up armor or packs. The Technician's default loadout is completely sufficient, too powerful in-fact. What reason is there for the Technician to have the most powerful SMG in the game again, does he really need that? But that's a whole other argument. Then... then we get to the bad stuff. Let's take it from the top. Infiltrator: Awful. His default loadout is completely unusable now, this is a carryover from early beta when he had the Hitscan Rhino and the Projectile SN7, they both seemed a little different back then. But since the change to projectile bullets, the Rhino has been useless. The double-knife loadout, you can cut sh*t but you can't pick it up because you don't have a fork, excuse the metaphor. Every Infiltrator ever uses the Stealth Spinfusor, it's the perfect burst damage and utility weapon for the INF and really should be standardized for it. Proposed default loadout changes: Rhino SMG -> Stealth Spinfusor Sentinel: The Nova Blaster. It's a fun weapon to use, but completely unreliable. Next to the Falcon and Accurized Shotgun this weapon is nothing but a gimmick. The BXT1 is also nowhere near viable anymore, and with the movement speed cap and forced scope time you're teaching Sentinels to move as little as possible from an early stage in the game. Proposed default loadout changes: BXT1 -> Phase Rifle, Nova Blaster -> Falcon Auto-Pistol Doombringer: The Chaingun is perfectly sufficient, the grenades are probably a good idea for a starting Doombringer so he doesn't rely on Mines from a very early stage and enhance D-stacks. The Saber Launcher is the problem here, I shouldn't even have to explain the problems with it, you should know by now. There are new guys in this game, who see the Saber Launcher and instantly, instead of trying to learn the game with actual weapons or roles, they sit on a hill with the Saber Launcher and just click. Proposed default loadout changes: Saber Missile Launcher -> Titan Launcher Juggernaut: The Juggernaut is just not viable in an offensive role without the X1 LMG and the Hand Discs. The MKD is fine for some crazy roles like Juggernaut chasing, or as an "honourfusor xD" alternative, but Juggernaut was never a viable role until the X1 and Hand Discs were added. The Heavy APs are awful for the Juggernaut as he's a long range bombardment class and would rarely get to use them on clusters of enemies. These grenades would fit much better on the Brute class. Proposed default loadout changes: Spinfusor MKD -> X1 LMG, Heavy AP -> Hand Discs +Give Heavy AP & Heavy AP-XL to Brute? Making any or all of these proposed changes would really tone down the "pay2win" element in the game that I've heard from many, many people. I'm just wondering if you're willing to go the extra mile. I like to think you foresaw this sort of thing when the game merged classes and the Ranger & Soldier got combined. The new Soldier had the Ranger's loadout, everyone was surprised that the Spinfusor wasn't in the standard medium loadout, but it's really easy to understand for anyone if you think about the usefulness and versatility of the AR + Thumper vs Spinfusor + Eagle loadout. The only change you could make here would be making the Spare Spinfusor standard for the Soldier. _________________ Important things: Possible solutions to D-stacking and ways to incentivize O Nark, certified #1 Chaser & #1 Scrambler Capper in Europe. Also #1 in Rabbit.
Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:34 pm

ReturnOnInvestment Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:19 pm Posts: 2	Re: About the change to XP prices I logged in just to say this. That XP prices aren't really the problem. Grinding itself is bad for the game but HR gotta have a business model. That's understandable. The problem is when you feel bullied into paying because you aren't viable from the start.
Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:47 am

orseoste7o Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:27 am Posts: 307	Re: About the change to XP prices I can't help but be pissed off it took them a year to do this. But it is a good move. _________________ Limyc wrote: uFr49 wrote: long live life You heard it here first, folks. Long Live Life!
Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:37 am

Nark51 Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:54 pm Posts: 855 Location: United Kingdom	Re: About the change to XP prices ReturnOnInvestment wrote: The problem is when you feel bullied into paying because you aren't viable from the start. This is exactly it, and the reason I made this thread. I just hope HiRez realises this. It certainly didn't help when they put out weapons like the Jackal and Plasma Gun, but those have been relatively nullified into place. It doesn't stop some of the default loadouts just being non-viable though unfortunately. _________________ Important things: Possible solutions to D-stacking and ways to incentivize O Nark, certified #1 Chaser & #1 Scrambler Capper in Europe. Also #1 in Rabbit.
Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:22 am

imot Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:03 pm Posts: 168	Re: About the change to XP prices very good points you make there, didn't even think about beginner loadouts due to massive overload of xp i got already but this could be one of the biggest issues in the game, the standard loadouts i agree with you on almost everything but i think the jug is fine, although i use mortar lmg and disc. wouldnt like to see tons of fatties running around chaining each other, they can do so with the dmb if they desire to. the changes to the xp system are really good i guess, i needed like 600 - 800 hours to unlock everything and i had 210 days of boost + vip, so you can imagine how long it takes for really f2p players. keep the good work up hirez _________________
Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:40 am

Boulop Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:08 am Posts: 23	Re: About the change to XP prices (In my opinion) Another reason for the "pay2win" whine is due to the game being different and not really easy to understand at the beginning. A lot of players coming from already existing but different FPS (COD for example) are probably playing for the first time thinking : "Ok I'm used to play FPS so let's kick some asses". But instead they just die and barely hit anything, so they may think "I'm not that bad, something might be wrong with the game ! ... Oh look ! You can unlock weapons, s* this is expensive, f* pay2win." So yes, (in my opinion) the grind itself was a part of the problem, but not the entire problem.
Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:12 am

Nark51 Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:54 pm Posts: 855 Location: United Kingdom	Re: About the change to XP prices Boulop, what you say can probably be fixed or mitigated at the least by some good tutorials on learning the game better. Ryukolink for one has made tons and tons of suggestions pertaining to this sort of thing, that have unfortunately gone ignored. _________________ Important things: Possible solutions to D-stacking and ways to incentivize O Nark, certified #1 Chaser & #1 Scrambler Capper in Europe. Also #1 in Rabbit.
Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:27 am

blueb34r Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:25 pm Posts: 12	Re: About the change to XP prices agree to everything except "Jug spin --> X1" (it's not fun for newbies i think) also they might want to approach the sen sidearm in a different way, e.g. nerfing falcon or buffing nova blaster to an even level so neither is a real upgrade.
Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:52 am

imot Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:03 pm Posts: 168	Re: About the change to XP prices blueb34r wrote: agree to everything except "Jug spin --> X1" (it's not fun for newbies i think) also they might want to approach the sen sidearm in a different way, e.g. nerfing falcon or buffing nova blaster to an even level so neither is a real upgrade. same with jug as i mentioned hell if you master the pewpew gun you will pwn everyone _________________
Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:16 am

mifly Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:24 am Posts: 913	Re: About the change to XP prices IfsIimot wrote: the changes to the xp system are really good i guess, i needed like 600 - 800 hours to unlock everything and i had 210 days of boost + vip, so you can imagine how long it takes for really f2p players. It took me similar time, I had just one 3 day booster. Let's looks at the changes: - new players master stuff just by playing, when used properly it gives 8x XP gain speed compared to old system - reduced gold/xp prices (like from 100k XP to 88k XP) - now 2x reduced prices again So roughly new players can now master the game in 50 hours, 25 with booster. With that speed, they don't even need vip. Quote: Proposed default loadout changes: BXT1 -> Phase Rifle, Nova Blaster -> Falcon Auto-Pistol Why buy an item (for example as a deal of the day) when you have the best from the beginning. New players would want everything free from start, but I'm skeptical what income it will generate. It might work if it will cause a big influx of players, or if people will buy things even when they don't need to, just for fun.
Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:21 am

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About the change to XP prices

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Nark51

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:54 pm
Posts: 855
Location: United Kingdom

About the change to XP prices

This is definitely a step in the right direction, as someone who has already unlocked everything in the game. From a lot of people I know that stopped playing the game, one of the main reasons they all quit the game was the massive grind, as well as the "pay2win" aspect.

I'd like to talk about other problem that remains. It's with the way default loadouts are handled. Some default loadouts are absolutely abhorrently awful compared to what you need to spend weeks in the game (maybe a little less time now) to unlock and play with.

A great example of a versatile and working loadout for a new player is the Soldier class. It is pretty much perfect, if not for the Thumper DX being arguably better than the Thumper D even for a new player, since the radius difference is very small.

The Raider's default loadout is also very good right off the bat. The Arx Buster is a great midpoint for dueling and utility between the Grenade Launcher and Plasma Gun, and the NJ4 SMG is now better than the NJ5.

The Pathfinder is also pretty decent if it wasn't for the lack of the perks REQUIRED to play it. The Light Spinfusor is pretty much a downgrade to the Dueling Spinfusor, but again it doesn't cost much. The main problem as I said is the perks, capping pretty much requires Egocentric, especially since the Pathfinder starts with 800 health (that's 1 discjump per regen, not even 2 impact nitrons since you don't even start with 2 impact nitrons).

The Brute's default loadout plays about the same as the fully unlocked version of straight upgrade weapons does (Devastator & Hammer), but I guess that's just more progression like levelling up armor or packs.

The Technician's default loadout is completely sufficient, too powerful in-fact. What reason is there for the Technician to have the most powerful SMG in the game again, does he really need that? But that's a whole other argument.

Then... then we get to the bad stuff. Let's take it from the top.

Infiltrator:
Awful. His default loadout is completely unusable now, this is a carryover from early beta when he had the Hitscan Rhino and the Projectile SN7, they both seemed a little different back then. But since the change to projectile bullets, the Rhino has been useless. The double-knife loadout, you can cut sh*t but you can't pick it up because you don't have a fork, excuse the metaphor. Every Infiltrator ever uses the Stealth Spinfusor, it's the perfect burst damage and utility weapon for the INF and really should be standardized for it.

Proposed default loadout changes: Rhino SMG -> Stealth Spinfusor

Sentinel:
The Nova Blaster. It's a fun weapon to use, but completely unreliable. Next to the Falcon and Accurized Shotgun this weapon is nothing but a gimmick. The BXT1 is also nowhere near viable anymore, and with the movement speed cap and forced scope time you're teaching Sentinels to move as little as possible from an early stage in the game.

Proposed default loadout changes: BXT1 -> Phase Rifle, Nova Blaster -> Falcon Auto-Pistol

Doombringer:
The Chaingun is perfectly sufficient, the grenades are probably a good idea for a starting Doombringer so he doesn't rely on Mines from a very early stage and enhance D-stacks. The Saber Launcher is the problem here, I shouldn't even have to explain the problems with it, you should know by now. There are new guys in this game, who see the Saber Launcher and instantly, instead of trying to learn the game with actual weapons or roles, they sit on a hill with the Saber Launcher and just click.

Proposed default loadout changes: Saber Missile Launcher -> Titan Launcher

Juggernaut:
The Juggernaut is just not viable in an offensive role without the X1 LMG and the Hand Discs. The MKD is fine for some crazy roles like Juggernaut chasing, or as an "honourfusor xD" alternative, but Juggernaut was never a viable role until the X1 and Hand Discs were added. The Heavy APs are awful for the Juggernaut as he's a long range bombardment class and would rarely get to use them on clusters of enemies. These grenades would fit much better on the Brute class.

Proposed default loadout changes: Spinfusor MKD -> X1 LMG, Heavy AP -> Hand Discs
+Give Heavy AP & Heavy AP-XL to Brute?

Making any or all of these proposed changes would really tone down the "pay2win" element in the game that I've heard from many, many people. I'm just wondering if you're willing to go the extra mile.

I like to think you foresaw this sort of thing when the game merged classes and the Ranger & Soldier got combined. The new Soldier had the Ranger's loadout, everyone was surprised that the Spinfusor wasn't in the standard medium loadout, but it's really easy to understand for anyone if you think about the usefulness and versatility of the AR + Thumper vs Spinfusor + Eagle loadout. The only change you could make here would be making the Spare Spinfusor standard for the Soldier.

_________________
Important things:
Possible solutions to D-stacking and ways to incentivize O

Nark, certified #1 Chaser & #1 Scrambler Capper in Europe. Also #1 in Rabbit.

Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:34 pm

ReturnOnInvestment

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:19 pm
Posts: 2

Re: About the change to XP prices

I logged in just to say this. That XP prices aren't really the problem. Grinding itself is bad for the game but HR gotta have a business model. That's understandable. The problem is when you feel bullied into paying because you aren't viable from the start.

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:47 am

orseoste7o

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:27 am
Posts: 307

Re: About the change to XP prices

I can't help but be pissed off it took them a year to do this. But it is a good move.

_________________

Limyc wrote:

uFr49 wrote:

long live life

You heard it here first, folks. Long Live Life!

Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:37 am

Nark51

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:54 pm
Posts: 855
Location: United Kingdom

Re: About the change to XP prices

ReturnOnInvestment wrote:

The problem is when you feel bullied into paying because you aren't viable from the start.

This is exactly it, and the reason I made this thread. I just hope HiRez realises this.

It certainly didn't help when they put out weapons like the Jackal and Plasma Gun, but those have been relatively nullified into place. It doesn't stop some of the default loadouts just being non-viable though unfortunately.

_________________
Important things:
Possible solutions to D-stacking and ways to incentivize O

Nark, certified #1 Chaser & #1 Scrambler Capper in Europe. Also #1 in Rabbit.

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:22 am

imot

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:03 pm
Posts: 168

Re: About the change to XP prices

very good points you make there, didn't even think about beginner loadouts due to massive overload of xp i got already

but this could be one of the biggest issues in the game, the standard loadouts
i agree with you on almost everything but i think the jug is fine, although i use mortar lmg and disc.
wouldnt like to see tons of fatties running around chaining each other, they can do so with the dmb if they desire to.

the changes to the xp system are really good i guess, i needed like 600 - 800 hours to unlock everything and i had 210 days of boost + vip, so you can imagine how long it takes for really f2p players.

keep the good work up hirez

_________________

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:40 am

Boulop

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:08 am
Posts: 23

Re: About the change to XP prices

(In my opinion) Another reason for the "pay2win" whine is due to the game being different and not really easy to understand at the beginning.

A lot of players coming from already existing but different FPS (COD for example) are probably playing for the first time thinking : "Ok I'm used to play FPS so let's kick some asses".
But instead they just die and barely hit anything, so they may think "I'm not that bad, something might be wrong with the game ! ... Oh look ! You can unlock weapons, s*** this is expensive, f*** pay2win."

So yes, (in my opinion) the grind itself was a part of the problem, but not the entire problem.

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:12 am

Nark51

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:54 pm
Posts: 855
Location: United Kingdom

Re: About the change to XP prices

Boulop, what you say can probably be fixed or mitigated at the least by some good tutorials on learning the game better. Ryukolink for one has made tons and tons of suggestions pertaining to this sort of thing, that have unfortunately gone ignored.

_________________
Important things:
Possible solutions to D-stacking and ways to incentivize O

Nark, certified #1 Chaser & #1 Scrambler Capper in Europe. Also #1 in Rabbit.

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:27 am

blueb34r

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:25 pm
Posts: 12

Re: About the change to XP prices

agree to everything except "Jug spin --> X1" (it's not fun for newbies i think)

also they might want to approach the sen sidearm in a different way, e.g. nerfing falcon or buffing nova blaster to an even level so neither is a real upgrade.

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:52 am

imot

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:03 pm
Posts: 168

Re: About the change to XP prices

blueb34r wrote:

same with jug as i mentioned

hell if you master the pewpew gun you will pwn everyone

_________________

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:16 am

mifly

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:24 am
Posts: 913

Re: About the change to XP prices

IfsIimot wrote:

the changes to the xp system are really good i guess, i needed like 600 - 800 hours to unlock everything and i had 210 days of boost + vip, so you can imagine how long it takes for really f2p players.

It took me similar time, I had just one 3 day booster.
Let's looks at the changes:
- new players master stuff just by playing, when used properly it gives 8x XP gain speed compared to old system
- reduced gold/xp prices (like from 100k XP to 88k XP)
- now 2x reduced prices again
So roughly new players can now master the game in 50 hours, 25 with booster.
With that speed, they don't even need vip.

Quote:

Proposed default loadout changes: BXT1 -> Phase Rifle, Nova Blaster -> Falcon Auto-Pistol

Why buy an item (for example as a deal of the day) when you have the best from the beginning.

New players would want everything free from start, but I'm skeptical what income it will generate. It might work if it will cause a big influx of players, or if people will buy things even when they don't need to, just for fun.

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:21 am

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About the change to XP prices